Anyone going to DC rally on Saturday?
Tue, 09/28/2010 - 5:28pm
Anybody going to the rally in DC on Saturday?
Here's what I've heard -
Next Saturday, Oct. 2, is a really big march on Washington, for jobs, bringing the troops home, immigrant rights, environmental policy. Pretty much everything. Coda (Lower East Side politcal group) is having a free bus from Tompkins Square Park, leaving at 6:00 AM and coming back around 9.
Jeff
Tue, 09/28/2010 - 9:43pm
#2
While I am sure some really sweet folks go to these things..
..I am convinced they accomplish nothing.
When you march where the gov't "allows" you to march you're doing nothing significant.
No offense, but I believe the greedy bankers and CEOs that have helped the unemployment total skyrocket just laugh at this stuff.
The outcome regarding the march against war on Iraq years back is pretty much the outcome you always get--no change.
Offhand my thoughts regarding what does make a difference are that only self-sacrifice does.
Wed, 09/29/2010 - 10:09pm
#3
somewhat interesting--overseas
Thu, 09/30/2010 - 12:03am
#4
????
Doesn't this news story disprove what you said. At the end doesn't the reporter say that due to protests in Greece the government retracted some of it's plans?
I know what you are saying here Barry but I think being as active as possible in influencing your government is a good thing. Things don't always happen overnight. Or even over years. sometimes it takes decades. It depends on what you're talking about but I see things changing all the time.
Thu, 09/30/2010 - 12:29am
#5
Anyone Going
Change usually comes from multiple things pointing in the same direction. True, marching didn't stop the Iraq war, but played a huge part in the civil rights movement. Marching was one of a number of things that helped end the Vietnam War. The same for the early labor struggles (like at the turn of the 20th century) and woman's sufferage movements. Demonstrations played a big part in the Farmworker's struggle in the 70s. So you never know. And seeing a lot of people out there can sometimes change the equation for both sides.
I agree with Barry that real fundamental change wont begin and end with people marching around. But it does help create an atmosphere where people start to think beyond just their day-to-day lives.
Thu, 09/30/2010 - 12:11pm
#6
Tell that to Dr. King
The March on Washington was a significant moment in the Civil Rights Movement.
Maybe the world's gotten so propagandized that marches have less impact.
But I went to the DC march against the Iraq war and felt positive about being there.
I also feel that neighborhood associations have a potential outlet for localized community action. And I definitely think the Act Locally philosophy still has legs.
Thu, 09/30/2010 - 6:36pm
#7
Reply
I said the 2nd video was somewhat interesting because those people are refusing to work, which is different than marching on your day off.
It is also sometimes illegal.
Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.did not go down and get permits to march and then stay within that framework.
Correct me if I am wrong, but Dr. King broke the law.
I know Gandhi committed many illegal acts.
Both were jailed.
Both were eventually murdered.
That is self sacrifice.
Marching where the police allow you to is not a sacrifice in book.
I stand by what i said.
Marching legally in a way that does not upset the flow of commerce or the functioning of the machine does nothing.
Thu, 09/30/2010 - 10:21pm
#8
Nobody said it's the same
Nobody said it's the same thing as Gandhi or MLK but it's not nothing. Doing nothing is doing nothing. People can be inspired. It stops the traffic for a while. It gets on the news. People bond. It strengthens people's resolve. Maybe it does nothing for you but people are different.
Fri, 10/01/2010 - 12:04am
#9
He had a permit
Actually, the sponsoring groups had them.
A group can't get a sound system (or thousands of people) in front of the Lincoln Memorial without one. From what I've been reading (and it is admittedly hard to find out about permits from 1963) there were permits for the March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom.
Senators spoke, musicians sang, and it was all legal. And if not for that march, that EVENT, the platform and recognition of the content of "I Have A Dream" would not have been as wide.
Admittedly Dr. King also broke the law sometimes- and preached non-violent methods. The law is an arbitrary enemy - law enforcement officials actually tried to force African Americans to ride buses in Montgomery Alabama during their boycott, saying they couldn't walk.
Dr. King and others blocked streets with human chains (illegal), but if an ambulance was coming, they let it through (moral?)
Malcolm X did not support the march, calling it the "Farce on Washington."
This is where I found out that permits were filed.
http://mlk-kpp01.stanford.edu/index.php/encyclopedia/encyclopedia/enc_ma...
Fri, 10/01/2010 - 7:23am
#10
Reply
My understanding of the March on Washington---or gathering their--that Dr. King was a part of was sort-of a result of all the unpopular, sometimes law-breaking, gritty, sometimes physically injurious, work that had come before.
(Not sure, but I am guessing some folks gave their lives along the build up to that day.)
Basically I am saying that when you protest according to the rules that the folks you are protesting against lay out for you you aren't really protesting, but rather you are having a social gathering, which is fine, but it's not going to change the minds of the people who are allowing you to do it, and by doing things as they tell you you actually reinforce the belief that they are qualified to rule, and you to follow.
Keep in mind, please, that i know nothing of this particular march Jeff speaks of, per se.
Rather this is my off the cuff accessment of the effectiveness of legal and well-controlled protest in general.
Fri, 10/01/2010 - 7:28pm
#11
As per usual I feel like I
As per usual, I agree with you about 40%. I feel a statement like yours has the potential to breed complacency.
On the other hand I understand totally where you are coming from when people who used these kinds of things like church confessionals to clear their consciences about how little they actually do substantially to change things.
I don't buy the everything or nothing argument. I do think it's possible to support the sentiment behind these things without call them the end all be all of change or pointless.
Here's a bit about the march: http://action.onenationworkingtogether.org/content/main
Tue, 10/05/2010 - 12:16am
#12
It was a beautiful sunny day
It was a beautiful sunny day in DC, and a beautiful scene there with the fountains and the reflecting pool, nice speeches by Harry Bellafonte, Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson and others.
It's true that nobody at the DC rally on Saturday changed the world significantly by sacrificing their day to be there.
I would also say, however, that the world is certainly better because rallies like that do happen, and the bigger they are the better. Individuals have more power when banded together in political groups, or unions, or networks like the antifolk scene - personally I think it'd be a really cool thing if the antifolk community, or whatever you want to call it, had a bit more of a tendency towards being a political presence, in terms of being a way to quickly spread the word about protests/actions like this, in which quantity of attendees does make a difference. I'll continue to pass along the word to the OJ board whenever I hear about events like this.
As far as the opinion that events like this "accomplish nothing" I think the same has probably been said of playing music at Sidewalk, or of putting out your own self-made album, etc - nonetheless I'm quite glad that people DO participate in these "small" activities and I'm glad that I participate in them myself. If I had not spent years playing at the Sidewalk open mic and making my own recordings I would never have gotten to the point where I had albums more widely distributed, heard by more people, etc - but even now my musical activities are not "pointless" drops in the bucket on my way to playing Madison Square Garden, each thing that you do in life IS a real thing. I'm glad that I went to Washington DC and made my opinion known in public, and made it known in public that a lot of other people share that opinion - the fact that the world didn't immediately change is not the defining point of the event, the same as playing at Sidewalk is not defined by whether or not you eventually make it to Madison Square Garden. We play at Sidewalk because it's better than being somebody who just sits at home - saying that it's pointless to play a show unless it's reaching thousands of people - and similarly I think it'd better to join a protest rather than stay at home.
I think it's usually better to do something than to do nothing. It's also nice to push your own boundaries, leave your comfort zone, spend a day doing something different, especially in the name of a good cause.
Tue, 10/05/2010 - 1:56am
#13
Reply
Let me see if I can hit on at least a facet of what I am thinking.
There are people that have turned their life over to a higher power. Their whole life is an act of protest against tyranny. Every step they take is peaceful. This may or may not lead them to attend an "official" protest in D.C. I'd say usually not, but that's my opinion.
There are also people that are selfish, let's call them immature. They harm others in exchange for money and power. They can quite easily attend a protest, in an attempt to convince themselves that they are a good person.
Unlike performing songs at Sidewalk I am not drawn to stand in D.C. with others, so I don't.
I am however drawn to live a life that is noble and over-all non-violent, and that has to be done in totality, not just for 6 hours a year.
Jeff Lewis, you're a nice person.
That, to me is why you are making a difference, not because you went to a legal gathering in D.C.
PS I am very much not a Jesse Jackson fan.
PPS I would say that attending a legal rally can often be a way to do nothing.
I know there are hard days when I'd love to give up and just stand around appearing good.
In general, my life is outside the comfort zone.
Tue, 10/05/2010 - 11:57am
#14
Some thoughts.
This march appears to be a unity and morale building exercise.
I think that is a nice idea. I think public displays of protest are effective only if they have teeth of some sort or truly massive numbers. In europe, the teeth part was not going to work on a regular workday. Not too long ago, a country overthrew its government, by just walking off the job and into the streets, basically saying, "Enough." A whole damn country took the streets. Like in the "Everybody Hurts," video by REM. So I guess it can work, sometimes.
I grew up going to marches. I think they are, for the most part, stupid. They only seem to have any effect when marchers are brutalized or killed. Sometimes not even then.
I would tell that to Martin Luther King, were he not dead of an assassin's bullet. I would say, "Martin, can I call you Martin? Okay then, Dr. King, you need new tactics. You've been standing in the streets for over fifty years now and, things are better, sort of. In fact, you can ride the bus again bro! Maybe its time to reexamine the effectiveness of the protest march, in today's world."
A few valid points are made for both sides of this argument above. I certainly won't condemn Jeff for joining like minded people in a display of unity in dissatisfaction. Mostly because I trust Jeff's motives in attending such an event. I do not trust the majority of others. Bubble and bead headed faux-hippie protest kids really irk me.
I view most modern protest marches as pathetically obvious and vainglorious attempts at assuaging liberal guilt. A poseur's paradise. Sprinkled with homeland security agent provocateurs.
I also dislike parades. I digress. My bullshit-o-meter goes totally batshit insane when I go to one of these things. There isn't enough weed in the world to keep me from feeling nauseous. Also, I'm way higher risk than your average OJ'er to get profiled and arrested at one of these shindigs. So fuck that. I'll sacrifice for a cause. Not the nebulous waffly undefined bullshit that these things often amount to.
That said, march if you wanna march.
I will now return to my argument with Dan F. about the then impending presidential election. In our current system of government , the person we elect as president makes little difference to the powers that actually control our country. At this time, it would appear that Obama has stepped into line quite nicely. From "Yes We Can," to "More of the Same Old Bullshit and Broken Promises." We are still in debt to the federal reserve bank. We still operate under a global economy that has the same basis in reality as god and santa claus. We are still in no less than two wars. God is still in public education. God is still in government. Our mainstream media outlets continue to be a divisive, polarizing force on race relations, while attempting to obscure the class war that has been going on for time out of mind.
There are some positives to Obama. He can read. He seems capable of discussing issues and policy extemporaneously. To my knowledge, he doesn't have a criminal record. He also speaks English, fluently. All improvements over our last CiC.
Okay, get ready, here it comes. Some shit you totally aren't ready for.
I think studies on genetics and intelligence/sexuality are cool but, what really needs to be studied is genetics and greed. If we could isolate the greed gene...viola! Half the world's problems solved right there.
Step 1) Launch the existing greedy into space, sans suits.
Step 2) Eliminate the greed gene.
One gigantic leap closer to sustainable global interdependence. Hooray!
"But Amos, that sounds like mass murder!" Yes, yes it does. I think branding is too cruel. "That's not what I meant, dude." Ha ha, I know, I know. It is a slippery slope isn't it? Um, the ends justify the means? Nope, I have something better. These people pose a clear and present danger to the continuing of humanity. Their inability to live cooperatively, without hoarding resources and enslaving others, and their overharvesting of natural resources has put them, and by extension, the rest of us, at odds with the very planet we live on. I am willing to live with the guilt that I won't feel, should we choose to eradicate an abhorrent portion of our current population. There, I said it.
Find the greed gene, let the culling begin! Eliminate the need for protest marches!
Muahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha ...ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha Hehe.
That sounds fun. I gotta work. I did one of those buses to DC for an antiwar march one time and it was a really great experience. I highly recommend it.
"Here to do great things."