Where are all the ladies at?
Mon, 12/13/2010 - 7:44pm
Anyone have any ideas about why once again this forum has managed to become dominated by dudes? I know you post Jeannie but I'm just just saying in general here. Anyone have any ideas on how to hear a few more women voices on the forum? Is there something intimidating about the tone? Anyone please feel free to chime in.
Mon, 12/13/2010 - 10:31pm
#2
Thanks Rachel
This is so nice to hear. And thanks so much for posting. I agree that face to face conversation is best. There is a lot of potential for misunderstanding and Net Rage. Kind of like when you drive a car and you just feel like running people over sometimes because you have this big metal protective box around you. I try and stress for people to be as courteous and thoughtful about how you say things and just try not to say something to someone that you wouldn't say to their face. I love the idea of a face to face group but I think as with most things it's very difficult to get a group of people to commit to a regular time (it's hard enough sometimes just for Nan and I to nail down the time for a Schwervon! practice). But I love the idea.
It still amazes me though how someone from New york can say something here and then before you know it you've got individuals from Arizona to Manchester chiming in. It just blows me away and I agree there is something to be said for how this format can inspire and bring people together.
I know this is gonna sound a bit controversial but I find in general the women that I know are more sensitive in how they communicate and as a dude this used to drive me crazy. I'm finding how important this sensitivity is in understanding people and working with them. Sometimes I'm amazed at the posturing that goes on on this board when all anyone needs to do is just say, "I'm sorry. I didn't mean to hurt your feelings. Or I wasn't talking about your specifically. Or Hey that hurt my feelings. Maybe you could say this differently." Again I'm not saying all women are like this or all men aren't sensitive. But I think the unfortunate influence of this "macho" attitude as created some very long and deep damage that all men continue to grapple with. I find myself craving that sensitivity more and more when it comes to discussing things or when I see people discussing political issues here or in the news. I'm not a man hater and I can totally dude it up as much as the next guy. I just feel like there's some basic facts we gotta look at like: most murders, most war, most violent behavior is committed by men. Sometimes I feel like it's the 300 pound elephant in the room. It seems obvious to me to ask the question: Why don't we try to get some more female energy in on this stuff??!?! I feel like if there is not enough of a balance of male and female energy for too long stuff starts feeling wrong to me. I guess, I'm always a bit afraid of that happening here. Anyway thank you so much for sharing and I hope you feel free to do so as much as you wish in the future.
I hope I didn't piss anyone off too much.
Tue, 12/14/2010 - 3:08am
#3
I can't speak for the women,
I can't speak for the women, obviously.
With the way the board has been lately, I wouldn't limit participation requests to the ladies…there are plenty of people that I miss hearing from regardless of gender.
I will say this: as a parent, I'm on a few yahoogroups lists. One, brooklynbabyhui, is a really great resource for parents. 99% of the people who post are women. Usually they share information like what stroller has the best safety ratings. But every once in a while someone will post a topic like "Are Vaccinations Safe?" or "When Should I Toilet Train My Child?" or--and this one really gets people drawing blood-- "Is It Bad If I Don't Breastfeed?" All of a sudden these mothers--a few in particular--start to get vicious, sanctimonious, rude, competitive, rambling and altogether nutty…much like some of the men and women on this board get. I remember once some mother just flipped and called everyone sanctimonious hipster parents in this long screed. There are over 1,000 people on that list, but there are a handful of women--about 10, I'd say--who dominate these discussions. Many of the lurkers just use the list for resources and avoid getting involved in these discussions.
In other words, while I think that there are differences in the way that men and women communicate, I wouldn't overstate it as a variable in the tone of online discussions. You give anyone the right topic and the right combination of personalities and you'll get some thoughtful/fiery/wacko discourse regardless of gender. I kind of think the idea of female energy oversimplifies things. I mean, Toby is pretty sweet when he pipes in. Tone is pretty even keel. M Sloan, by contrast, erupts in the most wicked-awesome way. I appreciate 'em all.
Tue, 12/14/2010 - 10:08am
#4
It's certainly debatable
I'm not so interested in people specifically as I'm talking about a vibe. Up to this point only women can have babies so it would make more sense to me that more women might be interested in the intimate aspects of early child rearing as there is a more literal physical connection. Not to say that Men can't or shouldn't be but that it seems to me an issue of biology and lingering stereotypes about women and child rearing. This to me doesn't explain why this board is so male dominated. That is unless you want to say that most of the recent discussion has been about politics and Politics are still pretty male dominated. And then I'd say again in both cases this is unfortunate and what can we do to change that?
For lack of a better term I'm calling it feminine energy or sensitivity? It's a tricky subject because as you've pointed out it's not point of view exclusive to gender but somehow appears to have it's roots in how we define gender roles in our society.
I am assuming that we are all balanced enough in our views of men and women that we can agree they are equally capable of accomplishing most things in our society. I'm just curious to why it seems to be the case that the majority of people accomplishing the killing, raping, and war, not to mention the money and power are men? I'm proposing a theory that it might have something to do with how men communicate or process with others.
Tue, 12/14/2010 - 4:42am
#5
That's right...
the women are smarter, the women are smarter that's right!
My guess is that they are busy creating, while the men are busy posturing.
Or, perhaps they aren't posting because they are in the throes of hysterical laughter, after reading our message board versions of "King of the Mountain."
In all seriousness, I've wondered about this as well. Personally, I feel cheated. I wouldn't bother to come to this board if I didn't want to know what other people thought and why. I think lurking is a disservice to endeavors like this and defeats the purpose. Not just on the part of women but anyone. Interdependence and community rely on participation. When people don't comment or offer thoughts and opinions, after awhile, the conversation just stops, or is reduced to the voices of the few, rather than the glorious harmony that is possible from the sounding of all of our voices.
How will we ever reach a state of compassionate, respectful understanding, if some are unwilling to reveal their thoughts?
If we are having a face to face conversation, and I offend or upset you but, you say nothing, and maintain a poker face, you do us both a disservice. Not only that, it is dishonest. If I say something woefully wrongheaded or even just factually inaccurate and you don't call me on it, I might continue down my path of ignorance indefinitely, when you could have been a force for positive change. I am robbed of a chance at greater understanding of another thinking, feeling, human perspective and you just think I'm an ass. Meanwhile, your silence could be interpreted as tacit agreement. We just failed to truly communicate and no one is the better for that. I don't see how lurking is much different.
We are here to help each other. Let us not be too selfish or worried about what others may think of us, to do just that. I would prefer my interactions were all face to face but, "I saw her today at the reception..."
P.S. Rachel, this was not a personal attack. The "you" in my hypothetical is not "you, Rachel." In fact, I love that you said what you said. I'd be very happy if we all dispensed with any antiquated notions of intellectual elitism and our notions of expertise. "You aren't an expert so what you say is unimportant." BULLSHIT. We all have so much to teach and so much to learn. We can only do that if communication is an equal give and take. I feel like I know a little more about you and, I'd like to know more still. Empathy CAN be learned, as well as taught. It is my belief that love, empathy and, good communication skills are key tools in leading humanity away from some of our less adaptive, more destructive behaviors. I believe that every moment is practice for the moments to come.
If I offended someone, it is my hope that they let me know how and why.
Tue, 12/14/2010 - 10:27am
#6
I like it
a lot.
added at 10:21
I understand that it's frustrating to not get a response from people but I also try to remember that sometimes people are too busy to really give a thoughtful response. Or sometimes I find a person's response gets me all heated up and little time helps me form my thoughts more constructively.
Tue, 12/14/2010 - 11:36am
#7
Hmmm...
Like Matt said about car-driving being conducive to Road rage, maybe there is an allure to men for a buffered flexing of their opinion or intellect.
I was interested to hear Rachel go into great lengths about needing that visual communication and intimacy from someone when communicating or sharing ideas.
I can't even stand talking on the phone most of the time, and much prefer expressing myself in writing.
Despite thinking of myself as a sensitive, and communicative person, I have certain areas of my psyche that when touched-upon reduce me to manic laughter which I know should in fact be tears.
In fact, I act REALLY negatively to even being asked "what's wrong?". It severely reduces my mood, ironically!
Men are real emotional retards, buoyed-up by their physical - or else intellectual - victories or conquests, and need distance to express their real feelings.
I'm not saying what goes on here is a pissing contest by any means, but maybe women don't feel the need to jump-in and offer their opinion as readily as we men do.
(FAIL for weighing-in...I just couldn't help myself!)
Tue, 12/14/2010 - 4:57pm
#8
I think you may have nailed it here.
(no pun intended) Thanks for that.
Tue, 12/14/2010 - 1:14pm
#9
Maybe slightly OT...
But I thought it interesting that I should come upon this article today:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/14/21-companies-that-have-ex_n_796...
I also don't think it helps that women like Sarah Palin, Christine O'Donnel(sp?) and Michelle Bachman are managing to uphold some of the worst stereotypes of women. If these three were men, they'd be just as ridiculous but, they are probably being held up as role models to little girls in republican/conservative homes, across the nation. While women of obvious strength and intelligence like Arianna Huffington, Nancy Pelosi and Michelle Obama are demonized by those right of center. Are they being demonized for their views or because of the fact that these views are being espoused by a woman?
Hmm, weird ass quasi-rant, off.
Tue, 12/14/2010 - 6:38pm
#10
Men, on the other hand, will
Men, on the other hand, will gladly offer their opinion on the opinion of women if it seems like the women aren't offering their opinion, IMHO.
Wed, 12/15/2010 - 4:29pm
#11
here we are!!!
i can't speak for all the ladies. I am just one. i have been BUSY which is mainly why i don't post (though maybe i'm a bit more of a lurker and TAWKER than a POSTER)
but I wanted to share the text of "riot grrrl manifesto" that kathleen hanna wrote in the Bikini Kill Zine in 1991. I came across it in 1992 in the liner notes of their record. This is what Kim Gordon read at the khanna tribute schwervon! played at.
i loved hearing it read out loud.....
inspiring stuff.
**************************************************
Riot Grrrl Manifesto
BECAUSE us girls crave records and books and fanzines that speak to US that WE feel included in and can understand in our own ways.
BECAUSE we wanna make it easier for girls to see/hear each other's work so that we can share strategies and criticize-applaud each other.
BECAUSE we must take over the means of production in order to create our own moanings.
BECAUSE viewing our work as being connected to our girlfriends-politics-real lives is essential if we are gonna figure out how we are doing impacts, reflects, perpetuates, or DISRUPTS the status quo.
BECAUSE we recognize fantasies of Instant Macho Gun Revolution as impractical lies meant to keep us simply dreaming instead of becoming our dreams AND THUS seek to create revolution in our own lives every single day by envisioning and creating alternatives to the bullshit christian capitalist way of doing things.
BECAUSE we want and need to encourage and be encouraged in the face of all our own insecurities, in the face of beergutboyrock that tells us we can't play our instruments, in the face of "authorities" who say our bands/zines/etc are the worst in the US and
BECAUSE we don't wanna assimilate to someone else's (boy) standards of what is or isn't.
BECAUSE we are unwilling to falter under claims that we are reactionary "reverse sexists" AND NOT THE TRUEPUNKROCKSOULCRUSADERS THAT WE KNOW we really are.
BECAUSE we know that life is much more than physical survival and are patently aware that the punk rock "you can do anything" idea is crucial to the coming angry grrrl rock revolution which seeks to save the psychic and cultural lives of girls and women everywhere, according to their own terms, not ours.
BECAUSE we are interested in creating non-heirarchical ways of being AND making music, friends, and scenes based on communication + understanding, instead of competition + good/bad categorizations.
BECAUSE doing/reading/seeing/hearing cool things that validate and challenge us can help us gain the strength and sense of community that we need in order to figure out how bullshit like racism, able-bodieism, ageism, speciesism, classism, thinism, sexism, anti-semitism and heterosexism figures in our own lives.
BECAUSE we see fostering and supporting girl scenes and girl artists of all kinds as integral to this process.
BECAUSE we hate capitalism in all its forms and see our main goal as sharing information and staying alive, instead of making profits of being cool according to traditional standards.
BECAUSE we are angry at a society that tells us Girl = Dumb, Girl = Bad, Girl = Weak.
BECAUSE we are unwilling to let our real and valid anger be diffused and/or turned against us via the internalization of sexism as witnessed in girl/girl jealousism and self defeating girltype behaviors.
BECAUSE I believe with my wholeheartmindbody that girls constitute a revolutionary soul force that can, and will change the world for real.
Wed, 12/15/2010 - 5:01pm
#12
Cool post, Nan.
As an aside, we have really good friends who live around the corner and have a daughter Marcella's age. The two are inseparable. For a long time the parents, when it came to dress, avoided pink and colors/styles that are generally regarded as the conventional style for girls. Then their daughter hit age two. She demanded pink, she demanded purple, and she wanted a princess dress. And they gave in and got her those things because when it comes to two-year olds, you don't try to reason with them and you pick and choose your battles. Now, despite the initial efforts of her well meaning parents, that kid wears almost all pink (she gets to pick out her own outfits). I'm sure someday she might reject those conventions, but it will be on her terms and when she's cognitively ready to do so.
Our other neighbors have slightly older children, age 4. One day during the fall I stopped by to say high and the daughter was outside with her twin brother. THey were getting ready to go shopping with their mother. She was wearing a pink fairy princess dress with a tutu. I asked her if she was going to a party. Her mom asked her to tell me why she was wearing the dress and the daughter's gleeful answer was, "because I WANT to!!!"
Point being, people have to find their own way, dress how they want to dress, contribute how/when they want to. I think it's noble to make sure that the message board is maintaining an energy that doesn't scare certain groups of people off, but ultimately the way to show people respect is to A) show that you care and then B) leave it up to them to do whatever they want despite what you would like them to do.
Matt, I think you do a good job of leaving the door open for people to contribute and/or express their dissatisfaction with the board if they feel like it. What will be will be.
Wed, 12/15/2010 - 4:47pm
#13
These are my favorites
BECAUSE we must take over the means of production in order to create our own moanings.
BECAUSE we know that life is much more than physical survival and are patently aware that the punk rock "you can do anything" idea is crucial to the coming angry grrrl rock revolution which seeks to save the psychic and cultural lives of girls and women everywhere, according to their own terms, not ours.
BECAUSE we are interested in creating non-heirarchical ways of being AND making music, friends, and scenes based on communication + understanding, instead of competition + good/bad categorizations.
Being a white, male, heterosexual I would be lying if I didn't say that there were a couple of lines in here that made me wriggle a little. But I'm trying to think about it as wriggling off the false stereotypes that I and others have incorrectly used to define myself. It makes me really think. And I love that.
Thu, 12/16/2010 - 10:16am
#14
Great post Nan!
Those are, indeed, inspiring words.
I thought about this post a lot today. Almost every, if not all, of the stated beliefs could be applied or modified to fit just about any group marginalized by our male dominated corporate capitalist culture and doctrine. To me, it seems obvious that no government/nation can truly flourish while clinging to a spoken or unspoken belief that some groups of people are inherently better than others or deserve more for their efforts, (or lack of efforts,) for whatever reason, be it sex, race or religion.
Whenever the news focuses on any royal family in the world, my head nearly explodes. Not with anger but confusion and utter disbelief. I am stunned that there is anyone, anywhere in the entire western world that would pay fealty, to another human being, based on a claim to divine right or any other such notion. We are all the kings and queens, princesses and princes. Our common inheritance to be divided as conscientiously as is humanly possible.
Then, later in the day, I watched a LinkTV special called "This Land is Our Land." http://www.linktv.org/programs/this-land-is-our-land Anyone else see it? (Is LinkTV offered on NYC cable systems?) It dealt largely with the way our public spaces and shared natural resources have been privatized and stolen from us, the people of the United States of America. Writings like the Riot Grrrl Manifesto are declarations of the intent to reclaim our world and to establish a sustainable paradigm for living. The first spaces to reclaim, are our own minds and bodies.
Also, I miss hearing/watching you play electric guitar. But, I take comfort in the fact that I know, wherever you are, when you're busy, you're busy bein' freakin' awesome! Yay Nan!
Thu, 12/16/2010 - 12:35pm
#15
I wish the ideals of riotgrrl
I wish the ideals of riotgrrl had really taken hold in a larger way. A few years after that manifesto, "girl power" became the cry of the Spice Girls...ugghh. And look where girls are now. Right back in the sexist shit, that they embrace and revel in (by that I mean women involved in mass culture, not the anti-folk types and this ilk.)
Ben, that's so funny and true about the pink thing. I have two young nieces, one of whom is completely into the pink/fairy/princess thing, and the other who has gone completely in the opposite direction, won't wear dresses, and only wants to play with Batman and Spiderman toys. We can't figure out how/why they've chosen to be so different. No one planted these ideas in their heads, they are purely themselves.
I have been a frequent lurker but infrequent poster.
I suppose my personal preference for one-on-one discussion makes message boards like this a wonderful place to receive information and opinion but not to share.
I am very into the idea of having weekly in person discussion groups about the topics being discussed. For me, an intellectual sharing, processing, debating of ideas can only partially be reflected in writing. I like to hear the tone of voice, witness the facial expression...have a certain amount of non-verbal empathetic communication that make conversations create togetherness even when regarding a difference of opinion...The ability to hash things out and the physical rush of mutual understanding...immediate gratification?
However, I would say that this board has inspired me to hunker down for hours and explore certain issues, most recently wikileaks (which I have yet to post about) and the less recent "female musician/sidewalk scene/etc" discussion (which I also never posted about but had several very interesting discussions about with other people).
So I guess, just because it is mainly dudes posting, I would not assume that the readership and impact of the board is male-heavy or that the ladies are intimidated in any way. Maybe some, like me, just prefer a more intimate discussion setting.
Thanks for the link - what an awesome night that must have been!