Hey Look we're in another war.

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"Here to do great things."

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Not So Fast...

I know its tempting to equate this to Iraq 2003 but its not. I highly doubt we will send ground troops to Libya. It's not about oil- because Gaddafi was selling us (by us I am talking about Europe) oil. This is why we forgave him for all the shit he has put us through for the past 30 years and why we gave him back the Lockerbie bomber and welcomed him back to the international community. If we really wanted oil- we would ignore Libya- like we are ignoring Bahrain and let them crush the protests however they wished.

We could have stood aside and watched, but it would become Obama's Rwanda. It would have been a bloody gruesome disaster and as the footage leaked out we would be questioning why we didn't go in there and do something. I've been watching the footage coming out of there for a month, its been terrifying. I don't need to watch bloody action movies anymore because I've seen what anti-aircraft guns does to flesh and bones and heads blown off and white phosphorus used on children.

Yes, this isn't the non-violent protests in Egypt and Tunisia- but Gaddafi declared war on his people. They had to fight back. They were doing very well for awhile too. I almost thought they might make it on their own, but when they got close to Sirte (Gaddafi's home city), and began closing in on Tripoli- he let go of any restraint he had and used everything he had. The revolutionaries could handle tanks and anti-aircraft, but they can't fight back against shelling and heavy artillery- especially when they're only source of ammunition is coming from army defectors. Gaddafi was also able to continue shipping in mercenaries and supplies despite the frozen assets. He would always have a fresh supply of troops while the Libyan revolutionary forces would weaken, even if the entire Libyan armed forces defected. The downside of mercenaries is they aren't fighting for their country, they're fighting for a paycheck, so when the tables turn, they will surrender or flee. Once they lose the technological superiority, the mercenaries don't stand a chance against the people. Since we initiated the NFZ and bombed key targets, Sirte and other key towns in the West are able to stand up too, now that they are no longer kept so deeply locked down. Morale is high amongst the Libyan people and they are the ones who were calling for help. We did not need to make up satellite images or stories of uranium cake- when they announced that the UN had passed the resolution for the NFZ downtown Benghazi began celebrating.

Yes, there is concern about collateral damage, but the Libyan people seem to have accepted the possibility of dying for their country. I don't know how much a stray missile might scare me if I knew the second option might be a missile intended for me. Also, be careful of Libyan official reports of casualties. During the past week, people have been reporting that bodies have been stolen from morgues or from fresh graves to use as the "victims of foreign aggression". The images of dead bodies shown on Libyan state television have bullet holes in them. I didn't realize that missiles leave bullet sized entry wounds.

The real reason we are going after Libya and not Yemen or Bahrain is because removing Gaddafi is the least diplomatically complicated of all the ongoing revolutions. The oil is just a coincidence. Gaddafi has made some efforts to be useful to the West in regards to the War on Terror, but his contributions have been minimal and his past history of terrorism makes his commitment a little suspect. Basically, no one is going to object to Gaddafi's disposal after all the misery he's caused. The Arab States hate him (particularly Saudi Arabia, which is very important I'll explain later), the West has bitter memories of his past deeds, Russia and China are only interested in him as an oil exporter, and he's linked to so many tyrants in Africa that even with his bribes, only the most repressive African dictators would really consider him a friend. Although there are tribal divisions, there are no major ethnic or religious disputes that could wreck havoc and they do not serve as a major buffer zone between ethnic groups (ie: Iraq was the buffer between Shia Iran and the Sunni Arabs). Cracking down on Gaddafi can serve as warning that his behavior won't be tolerated by the world without much opposition.

The biggest reason we chose Libya of all the Arab revolutions is because cracking down on them would not threaten our dear friend Saudi Arabia. The Saudis are very angry with us for letting Mubarak fall so easily and the other Arab revolutions are much too close to Saudi's security interests that they would tolerate us meddling with. Further destabilizing Yemen would cause massive security concerns with the tribal areas in the South and there is no way Saudi will allow a Shia majority Bahrain, especially when they have trouble stirring amongst their own Shiaa population in the East. Not to mention, they view Bahrain as a proxy war with Iran. We need to keep the Saudis happy right now, so we have to stay quiet. However, I don't think our actions in Libya will go unnoticed in Damascus, Algiers, Sanaa, Rabat, Amman, Muscat, Khartoum, Manama, or Riyadh. They all are going to have to make a decision at some point to what point they are going to fight to stay in power, Libya might serve as a deterrent to go as far as Gaddafi was/is willing to go. It's going to be a very bloody year, but I hope the NFZ might instill a little fear in them.

Also, when we talk about our American Revolution- we were 13 colonies with nothing in common who formed a ragtag army and kicked the British out and built a national identity around it in the process. We also would not have won without Benjamin Franklin convincing the French to give us a hand. Without the French Navy we might not have made it. We already bought the fucking missiles and aircraft anyway, so complaining where these funds came from is sort of pointless now.

We don't have to be chanting "USA USA" throughout the ordeal but still wish the best for Libya and hope that Gaddafi and sons are either brought to justice or wiped off the earth quickly and with as little loss of life as possible.

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Not so fast is right...

Thanks, as usual, for this great input. I agree with most of what you have said and I hope, as well, that things will turn out the way you hope. I'm concerned for the people of Libya. I think to compare this situation to Rwanda is a bit speculative. To me Rwanda was more about genocide and class struggle. Lybia is about a crazy dictator and oil. Also I wouldn't say this is the same as Iraq but there are some interesting comparisons. Crazy dictator doing bad stuff to his own people. Perhaps if we had youtube clips of some of the stuff that Sadam Hussein did to his people we may feel differently about the benefits of that war as well? I know it's different but I'm just saying.

Of course I'm concerned for the people of Libya but I'm also concerned about how the US President is able to commit military resources to something without having to pass it through congress. And how we always move so quickly to using our military. I was watching an Admiral in the US army giving a press conference briefing yesterday and there were a couple of practical questions that seemed to come up that could lead to a potentially sticky situation.

I don't really get this "no fly zone" thing. I also don't like the ambiguity of whether we support the rebels or not. It seems shifty and propagates this idea that the US has to be the worlds police force. Are we just helping now so we can position ourselves to benefit in some way from Libya's future leaders while trying not to commit to anyone in particular? Right now we are acting as part of the UN? This needs to be more clear. We say we're not going after Gaddafi but we just blew up one of his private compounds saying that it's part of enforcing the "no flyzone" and if he just happened to be in there and get killed then "Oops. Oh well." It all just feels like typical shifty US foreign policy. We're calling for Gaddafi to step down but then agin we're saying that things could work out if he doesn't step down and just stops killing his own people??? There's already a lot of mixed messages.

There should be a national debate about these things followed by a vote. I think for obvious reasons US military involvement in a Muslim country on any level is not to be taken lightly... I know that we're (US) not taking the lead on this and I think that's a good thing but I fear that our continued involvement in this conflict will get messy over time and just fuel the "anti western" sentiment in the middle east.

Furthermore, I think this is all pulling important focus from Egypt.

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I think that cracking down on

I think that cracking down on Gaddafi is depressing because it means that nothing has changed with US foreign policy. Let dictators rule when it's politically convenient. Bomb then when it's not. To me, wishing Libya the best to this situation is like wishing the abused family the best when the alcoholic/violent father takes them to Disneyland. The father isn't getting help; he's still sick. So is the US.

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U.S. jet crashes in Libya,

U.S. jet crashes in Libya, pilots survive, as Gaddafi’s forces dig in

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/in-libya-gaddafis-forces-dig-into-po...

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I'm trying to find something

I'm trying to find something I don't agree with in this speech. I think it's spot on.

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Juan Cole Pretty Much Sums It All Up.

An Open Letter to the Left on Libya
http://www.juancole.com/2011/03/an-open-letter-to-the-left-on-libya.html

Posted on 03/27/2011 by Juan
As I expected, now that Qaddafi’s advantage in armor and heavy weapons is being neutralized by the UN allies’ air campaign, the liberation movement is regaining lost territory. Liberators took back Ajdabiya and Brega (Marsa al-Burayqa), key oil towns, on Saturday into Sunday morning, and seemed set to head further West. This rapid advance is almost certainly made possible in part by the hatred of Qaddafi among the majority of the people of these cities. The Buraiqa Basin contains much of Libya’s oil wealth, and the Transitional Government in Benghazi will soon again control 80 percent of this resource, an advantage in their struggle with Qaddafi.

I am unabashedly cheering the liberation movement on, and glad that the UNSC-authorized intervention has saved them from being crushed. I can still remember when I was a teenager how disappointed I was that Soviet tanks were allowed to put down the Prague Spring and extirpate socialism with a human face. Our multilateral world has more spaces in it for successful change and defiance of totalitarianism than did the old bipolar world of the Cold War, where the US and the USSR often deferred to each other’s sphere of influence.

The United Nations-authorized intervention in Libya has pitched ethical issues of the highest importance, and has split progressives in unfortunate ways. I hope we can have a calm and civilized discussion of the rights and wrongs here.

On the surface, the situation in Libya a week and a half ago posed a contradiction between two key principles of Left politics: supporting the ordinary people and opposing foreign domination of them. Libya’s workers and townspeople had risen up to overthrow the dictator in city after city– Tobruk, Dirna, al-Bayda, Benghazi, Ajdabiya, Misrata, Zawiya, Zuara, Zintan. Even in the capital of Tripoli, working-class neighborhoods such as Suq al-Jumah and Tajoura had chased out the secret police. In the two weeks after February 17, there was little or no sign of the protesters being armed or engaging in violence.

The libel put out by the dictator, that the 570,000 people of Misrata or the 700,000 people of Benghazi were supporters of “al-Qaeda,” was without foundation. That a handful of young Libyan men from Dirna and the surrounding area had fought in Iraq is simply irrelevant. The Sunni Arab resistance in Iraq was for the most part not accurately called ‘al-Qaeda,’ which is a propaganda term in this case. All of the countries experiencing liberation movements had sympathizers with the Sunni Iraqi resistance; in fact opinion polling shows such sympathy almost universal throughout the Sunni Arab world. All of them had at least some fundamentalist movements. That was no reason to wish the Tunisians, Egyptians, Syrians and others ill. The question is what kind of leadership was emerging in places like Benghazi. The answer is that it was simply the notables of the city. If there were an uprising against Silvio Berlusconi in Milan, it would likely unite businessmen and factory workers, Catholics and secularists. It would just be the people of Milan. A few old time members of the Red Brigades might even come out, and perhaps some organized crime figures. But to defame all Milan with them would be mere propaganda.

Then Muammar Qaddafi’s sons rallied his armored brigades and air force to bomb the civilian crowds and shoot tank shells into them. Members of the Transitional Government Council in Benghazi estimate that 8000 were killed as Qaddafi’s forces attacked and subdued Zawiya, Zuara, Ra’s Lanuf, Brega, Ajdabiya, and the working class districts of Tripoli itself, using live ammunition fired into defenseless rallies. If 8000 was an exaggeration, simply “thousands” was not, as attested by Left media such as Amy Goodman’s Democracy Now! As Qaddafi’s tank brigades reached the southern districts of Benghazi, the prospect loomed of a massacre of committed rebels on a large scale.

The United Nations Security Council authorization for UN member states to intervene to forestall this massacre thus pitched the question. If the Left opposed intervention, it de facto acquiesced in Qaddafi’s destruction of a movement embodying the aspirations of most of Libya’s workers and poor, along with large numbers of white collar middle class people. Qaddafi would have reestablished himself, with the liberation movement squashed like a bug and the country put back under secret police rule. The implications of a resurgent, angry and wounded Mad Dog, his coffers filled with oil billions, for the democracy movements on either side of Libya, in Egypt and Tunisia, could well have been pernicious.

The arguments against international intervention are not trivial, but they all did have the implication that it was all right with the world community if Qaddafi deployed tanks against innocent civilian crowds just exercising their right to peaceful assembly and to petition their government. (It simply is not true that very many of the protesters took up arms early on, though some were later forced into it by Qaddafi’s aggressive military campaign against them. There still are no trained troops to speak of on the rebel side).

Some have charged that the Libya action has a Neoconservative political odor. But the Neoconservatives hate the United Nations and wanted to destroy it. They went to war on Iraq despite the lack of UNSC authorization, in a way that clearly contravened the UN Charter. Their spokesman and briefly the ambassador to the UN, John Bolton, actually at one point denied that the United Nations even existed. The Neoconservatives loved deploying American muscle unilaterally, and rubbing it in everyone’s face. Those who would not go along were subjected to petty harassment. France, then deputy secretary of defense Paul Wolfowitz pledged, would be “punished” for declining to fall on Iraq at Washington’s whim. The Libya action, in contrast, observes all the norms of international law and multilateral consultation that the Neoconservatives despise. There is no pettiness. Germany is not ‘punished’ for not going along. Moreover, the Neoconservatives wanted to exercise primarily Anglo-American military might in the service of harming the public sector and enforced ‘shock therapy’ privatization so as to open the conquered country to Western corporate penetration. All this social engineering required boots on the ground, a land invasion and occupation. Mere limited aerial bombardment cannot effect the sort of extreme-capitalist revolution they seek. Libya 2011 is not like Iraq 2003 in any way.

Allowing the Neoconservatives to brand humanitarian intervention as always their sort of project does a grave disservice to international law and institutions, and gives them credit that they do not deserve, for things in which they do not actually believe.

The intervention in Libya was done in a legal way. It was provoked by a vote of the Arab League, including the newly liberated Egyptian and Tunisian governments. It was urged by a United Nations Security Council resolution, the gold standard for military intervention. (Contrary to what some alleged, the abstentions of Russia and China do not deprive the resolution of legitimacy or the force of law; only a veto could have done that. You can be arrested today on a law passed in the US Congress on which some members abstained from voting.)

Among reasons given by critics for rejecting the intervention are:

1. Absolute pacifism (the use of force is always wrong)

2. Absolute anti-imperialism (all interventions in world affairs by outsiders are wrong).

3. Anti-military pragmatism: a belief that no social problems can ever usefully be resolved by use of military force.

Absolute pacifists are rare, and I will just acknowledge them and move on. I personally favor an option for peace in world policy-making, where it should be the default initial position. But the peace option is trumped in my mind by the opportunity to stop a major war crime.

Leftists are not always isolationists. In the US, progressive people actually went to fight in the Spanish Civil War, forming the Lincoln Brigade. That was a foreign intervention. Leftists were happy about Churchill’s and then Roosevelt’s intervention against the Axis. To make ‘anti-imperialism’ trump all other values in a mindless way leads to frankly absurd positions. I can’t tell you how annoyed I am by the fringe left adulation for Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, on the grounds that he is ‘anti-imperialist,’ and with an assumption that he is somehow on the Left. As the pillar of a repressive Theocratic order that puts down workers, he is a man of the far Right, and that he doesn’t like the US and Western Europe doesn’t ennoble him.

The proposition that social problems can never be resolved by military force alone may be true. But there are some problems that can’t be solved unless there is a military intervention first, since its absence would allow the destruction of the progressive forces. Those arguing that “Libyans” should settle the issue themselves are willfully ignoring the overwhelming repressive advantage given Qaddafi by his jets, helicopter gunships, and tanks; the ‘Libyans’ were being crushed inexorably. Such crushing can be effective for decades thereafter.

Assuming that NATO’s UN-authorized mission in Libya really is limited ( it is hoping for 90 days), and that a foreign military occupation is avoided, the intervention is probably a good thing on the whole, however distasteful it is to have Nicolas Sarkozy grandstanding. Of course he is not to be trusted by progressives, but he is to his dismay increasingly boxed in by international institutions, which limits the damage he could do as the bombing campaign comes to an end (Qaddafi only had 2000 tanks, many of them broken down, and it won’t be long before he has so few, and and the rebels have captured enough to level the playing field, that little further can be accomplished from the air).

Many are crying hypocrisy, citing other places an intervention could be staged or worrying that Libya sets a precedent. I don’t find those arguments persuasive. Military intervention is always selective, depending on a constellation of political will, military ability, international legitimacy and practical constraints. The humanitarian situation in Libya was fairly unique. You had a set of tank brigades willing to attack dissidents, and responsible for thousands of casualties and with the prospect of more thousands to come, where aerial intervention by the world community could make a quick and effective difference.

This situation did not obtain in the Sudan’s Darfur, where the terrain and the conflict were such that aerial intervention alone would have have been useless and only boots on the ground could have had a hope of being effective. But a whole US occupation of Iraq could not prevent Sunni-Shiite urban faction-fighting that killed tens of thousands, so even boots on the ground in Darfur’s vast expanse might have failed.

The other Arab Spring demonstrations are not comparable to Libya, because in none of them has the scale loss of life been replicated, nor has the role of armored brigades been as central, nor have the dissidents asked for intervention, nor has the Arab League. For the UN, out of the blue, to order the bombing of Deraa in Syria at the moment would accomplish nothing and would probably outrage all concerned. Bombing the tank brigades heading for Benghazi made all the difference.

That is, in Libya intervention was demanded by the people being massacred as well as by the regional powers, was authorized by the UNSC, and could practically attain its humanitarian aim of forestalling a massacre through aerial bombardment of murderous armored brigades. And, the intervention could be a limited one and still accomplish its goal.

I also don’t understand the worry about the setting of precedents. The UN Security Council is not a court, and does not function by precedent. It is a political body, and works by political will. Its members are not constrained to do elsewhere what they are doing in Libya unless they so please, and the veto of the five permanent members ensures that a resolution like 1973 will be rare. But if a precedent is indeed being set that if you rule a country and send tank brigades to murder large numbers of civilian dissidents, you will see your armor bombed to smithereens, I can’t see what is wrong with that.

Another argument is that the no-fly zone (and the no-drive zone) aimed at overthrowing Qaddafi not to protect his people from him but to open the way for US, British and French dominance of Libya’s oil wealth. This argument is bizarre. The US declined to do oil business with Libya in the late 1980s and throughout the 1990s, when it could have, because it had placed the country under boycott. It didn’t want access to that oil market, which was repeatedly proffered to Washington by Qaddafi then. After Qaddafi came back in from the cold in the late 1990s (for the European Union) and after 2003 (for the US), sanctions were lifted and Western oil companies flocked into the country. US companies were well represented, along with BP and the Italian firm ENI. BP signed an expensive exploration contract with Qaddafi and cannot possibly have wanted its validity put into doubt by a revolution. There is no advantage to the oil sector of removing Qaddafi. Indeed, a new government may be more difficult to deal with and may not honor Qaddafi’s commitments. There is no prospect of Western companies being allowed to own Libyan petroleum fields, which were nationalized long ago. Finally, it is not always in the interests of Big Oil to have more petroleum on the market, since that reduces the price and, potentially, company profits. A war on Libya to get more and better contracts so as to lower the world price of petroleum makes no sense in a world where the bids were already being freely let, and where high prices were producing record profits. I haven’t seen the war-for-oil argument made for Libya in a manner that makes any sense at all.

I would like to urge the Left to learn to chew gum and walk at the same time. It is possible to reason our way through, on a case-by-case basis, to an ethical progressive position that supports the ordinary folk in their travails in places like Libya. If we just don’t care if the people of Benghazi are subjected to murder and repression on a vast scale, we aren’t people of the Left. We should avoid making ‘foreign intervention’ an absolute taboo the way the Right makes abortion an absolute taboo if doing so makes us heartless (inflexible a priori positions often lead to heartlessness). It is now easy to forget that Winston Churchill held absolutely odious positions from a Left point of view and was an insufferable colonialist who opposed letting India go in 1947. His writings are full of racial stereotypes that are deeply offensive when read today. Some of his interventions were nevertheless noble and were almost universally supported by the Left of his day. The UN allies now rolling back Qaddafi are doing a good thing, whatever you think of some of their individual leaders.

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but *they're using tanks*!!!

Boy, Juan Cole wrote all that and he still can't refute my original point. It's amazing the extent that liberals--if you give them the right situation--will go to justify some cluster bombs. I guess Saddam wasn't bad enough to get the liberals' invasion support?

"On the surface, the situation in Libya a week and a half ago posed a contradiction between two key principles of Left politics: supporting the ordinary people and opposing foreign domination of them."

These are not and have never been the principles of any presidential administration that I can think of in the modern era. These are not the principles driving Obama. The United States supports PLENTY of situations where ordinary people are dominated by opposing forces. The reaction of the US in Libya does not represent a fundamental change in policy. Cole's argument is projecting motivations on to the US government, and that's the whole point.

I'm sure Obama would love it: "um yeah, that's why we're going in! What he said."

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US support for ordinary people