Bin Laden is dead
Mon, 05/02/2011 - 3:58am
A. I really thought he's been dead for a long time now. An old man dialysis was supposed to be hiding in the mountains, exposed to the elements?
B. So that means we destroyed Al Qaeda? Well, no. Groups calling themselves Al Qaeda or with the same goals and aims as Al Qaeda exist all over the world. They do not take orders from Bin Laden. By the way, did anyone catch if they killed Zahwari too? He was the tactical mind behind the attacks, while Bin Laden supplied the finances and served as the figurehead for the movement.
C. Great! So that means were leaving Afghanistan?
Mon, 05/02/2011 - 9:20am
#2
Doesn't seem right...
I'm watching all this on the news guys and something doesn't sit right with me..All these Americans celebrating in the streets and all this.
Wtf what if they really do have a nuclear device hidden like they said a few weeks ago? OKAY ,pick a small American ally or a European city or something. Boom ,were done for.. Like Ireland :/ they let military jets and whatnot refuel.. It would be pretty easy to do something to a weaker nation then go after America, then have America retaliate and invade another Isalamic nation and fuel more hatred..
Zawahiri is their new leader.. Or will be..
I hope this operation by Obama doesn't end here with Osama Bin Laden. Maybe it's just a small part of something larger.
Rant over.
- Aidan.
Mon, 05/02/2011 - 3:12pm
#3
some thoughts...
I'm not really diggin' the bloodlust.
I'm glad that Major Matt declared the war over.
I'm pretty sure that if we had done nothing, eventually Bin Laden would have died anyway. After all, it's not like he was Christopher Lambert or anything.
So why were our tax dollars spent on something that would have eventually happened for free?
Mon, 05/02/2011 - 8:11pm
#4
In a world void of terror...
there would be no "Terror Train."
Tue, 05/03/2011 - 12:10am
#5
I'm glad I missed most of the "dancing in the street" bullshit.
This country is all about show-biz, and that includes the government.
Who the hell knows how long Osama has been dead, or if he is dead, or anythinbg else?
Who has the right to judge the guy?
From what I can tell, many American "heroes" have stood for the exact same thing he did.
I'm not dancing in any street.
I'm fucking sick of the blind patriotism and I am fucking sick of the killing.
U.S. Armed Forces need to get the fuck out of the Middle East, unless they are invited there to help people--ie. humanitarian aid.
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"I know that because of this announcement, that reportedly Osama bin Laden was killed, Bob [Truthdig Editor Robert Scheer] wanted me to say a few words about it … about al-Qaida. I spent a year of my life covering al-Qaida for The New York Times. It was the work in which I, and other investigative reporters, won the Pulitzer Prize. And I spent seven years of my life in the Middle East. I was the Middle East bureau chief for The New York Times. I’m an Arabic speaker. And when someone came over and told ... me the news, my stomach sank. I’m not in any way naive about what al-Qaida is. It’s an organization that terrifies me. I know it intimately."
"But I’m also intimately familiar with the collective humiliation that we have imposed on the Muslim world. The expansion of military occupation that took place throughout, in particular the Arab world, following 9/11—and that this presence of American imperial bases, dotted, not just in Iraq and Afghanistan, but in Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Doha—is one that has done more to engender hatred and acts of terror than anything ever orchestrated by Osama bin Laden."
--------Chris Hedges
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Tue, 05/03/2011 - 5:22am
#6
From Zurich
We played our favorite club in Europe last night, El Lokal. We decided before the set we had to address this but we were not sure how we felt. Disgusted at the news of parties and celebration in NYC over the death of a human being. Freaked that an assassination squad is working so closely with the executive branch, specifically the president. Skeptical that this would actually change anything…more convinced it could only make things worse. Cynical about the "at sea" burial…how convenient that there is no body.
We said this. We said a lot. We played Boy With The Gun and talked about fighting violence with violence, terror with more terror…insanity!
A girl came up after the show and said she was glad to hear someone from America say these things and that it was really important for her.
This morning, I am still saddened and disheartened by the actions of the government and my country. I feel like all I can do is continue to put it out there that this action is NOT OKAY for me and that there are many Americans who feel the same.
Ugh!
Tue, 05/03/2011 - 9:01am
#7
Devil's advocate
I'm gonna play this point a little bit just to stir up this left heavy exchange.
If we weren't supposed to capture/kill OBL then what were we supposed to do? Say, "No hard feelings and ignore him?" Bring him to trial and give him a national stage for months even years to recruit more disciples? This is a guy that has self proclaimed responsibility for killing thousands of innocent people and would presumedly kill millions more if he had the chance. It's debatable about whether this is going to change much in the terrorist landscape but the point remains the man is responsible for a conspiracy to commit mass murder and nothing short of genocide. Whether you agree with the celebratory reaction of people or not, the world is short one homicidal maniac today and there is no denying that this is a good thing.
=============
FOR THE RECORD: These are my true feelings about this issue.
(taken from my blog from today) I think my feelings about the death of Osama Bin Laden are somewhat typical for New Yorkers who were here during 9/11: Divided. There is no denying that when first told the news about his capture and death a certain energy came over my body. I'm not quite sure if it was relief or closure or what but it was an energy. As the news sunk in I started to wonder, sadly, how much of a difference this would make in the spreading of terrorism. Or if, as the cycle of violence typically works, it would just seal his fate as a martyr and fuel more hate killing. Once I heard about the celebration and chanting of "USA" I started to feel shame and embarrassment. What makes this any different from the countless bits of footage of angry, gun toting Jihadist in the streets of some Middle Eastern country? I think it's important to consider how both of these activities inspire fear in certian corners of the world.
http://matthew-roth.livejournal.com/137023.html
Tue, 05/03/2011 - 11:08am
#8
I'm just letting it go.
I'm just letting it go.
Tue, 05/03/2011 - 12:51pm
#9
A thought I had this morning
A thought I had this morning -
This explains why Obama felt like he had to address the Birth Certificate issue publicly last Friday.
Many people felt like Obama was giving the Birther lunatics much more credit than they were worth by actually taking time to address the silly issue publicly and put it to rest, BUT if Obama had actually known prior to that address (as has been reported) that something big was potentially about to happen regarding Osama bin Laden, then it stands to reason that the Birthers would have been given a big boost in their conspiracy theories if President Obama hadn't addressed them at exactly that time. Announcing a no-body "death of bin Laden" would have looked, to many anti-Obama people, like a very suspiciously-timed distraction from the Birth Certificate question, and would have given those Birther nuts just the excuse they would have needed in order to blow their conspiracy-theory agenda into WAY higher proportions.
Regardless of how you feel about the Birther stuff or the reported Osama bin Laden killing, you have to say that President Obama's administration played their chess moves intelligently this past week.
Another thought, while we're on the subject:
Personally I agree with those who say Osama bin Laden should have been brought to a civilized trial. I'd go further and say that this trial could possibly even have been in the Hague, for a world-wide court (not just America) to try him in a public and legal manner, like Slobodan Milosovic was tried for his crimes in Serbia and like Nazis were tried for their crimes after WW2.
Otherwise it's just vengeance killing on top of vengeance killing ad infinitum, with no moral high ground.
In fact, the end result could have been exactly the same - Osama bin Laden killed in firefight while troops were attempting to arrest him. The difference would have been rhetorical, but no less important a difference for that. President Obama would have announced that his orders were to capture Osama bin Laden as in any legal arrest of a wanted criminal, and that Osama bin Laden was violently resisting arrest, shooting first and turning it into a firefight, thus he had been shot and killed in self-defense by US troops during the firefight.
It makes me a bit sick to think of President Obama, a man who I do believe intended to use the office of Presidency to help people (regardless of opinions about his ineffectiveness/corruption in this regard), literally giving the order to have a man killed. No matter how evil that man is suspected of being, he has never been tried in a court of law, and we are meant to be a civilized society providing a beacon of law and justice to the world. How can Obama face his children? If he truly ordered a man killed, he has acted not as a stern and respectable man of the law but merely as a mafia boss.
Perhaps his speech was meant to make him look tougher than his orders literally were - certainly he has more need to bolster his appeal to hawkish voters than to liberal ones - but he lost a very large opportunity to take the moral high road, at least rhetorically, even if the result would have been exactly the same. It could have been a worldwide public win-win for the Obama administration.
Jeff
Tue, 05/03/2011 - 4:08pm
#10
I agree with this...
Good point.
Tue, 05/03/2011 - 4:59pm
#11
One thing that bothers me
One thing that bothers me about this is that despite Osama's crimes, I still feel as if he was a pretext for invading Afghanistan. It's not as if we have finally reached the end goal of bombing the hell out of that region of the world. Killing OBL was never an end goal. At this point, there might not even be an end goal...maybe we're just perpetuating a war machine that needs to keep moving. What surprises me is that people are excited about the death of OBL after 10 years. To me it represents a complete disconnect with what we are doing over there right now. Absolutely nothing has changed. Even if I felt a tinge of energy regarding his death, the depressing weight of the war(s) we are involved in couldn't get me out of my chair, let alone dancing in the street. MMM, even your devil's advocate point that there is one less maniac out there doesn't hold. I don't think that OBL's death and its affect on this war can be assessed in any significant way.
Jeff's post is spot on, and one of the reasons that OBL would never be have been brought to trial. OBL's only value to the administration at this point is as political news/leverage. OBL's existence is not strategically significant to our operations over there. And since his only value was as leverage, he needed to be killed. A trial would not have had the emotional impact that Obama needed.
Tue, 05/03/2011 - 7:28pm
#12
Of course he's a pretext. Our
Of course he's a pretext. Our biggest failure since 9/11 is that we haven't addressed one of the foreign policy issues that are prime recruiting tools for Al Qaeda and similar groups.
1. Get the military out of the Arabian Penninsula and the Persian Gulf
2. Unconditional support of Israel and the continued repression of Palestinian rights
3. Support for corrupt tyrannical regimes worldwide, particularly those in Muslim nations.
It's pretty cool he died this year, because this is the year Al Qaeda became obsolete. Their entire message that beneficial change to Muslims could only come by waging violent jihad was already proved wrong in Tunisia and Egypt. Why else would the Yemeni population, with one of the world's highest ratio of guns per person and the home of Al Qaeda of the Arabian Penninsula- continue to protest peacefully despite being shot at with live ammunition. Even in Libya, where they have had to wage war to get Gaddafi out- there are no suicide bombings, no IEDs, no kidnappings (except by Gaddafi forces). Hamas and Fatah got their incompetent selves to the table and negotiated a deal because the Palestinians had enough of the stupid factionalism that is only hindering their attempts at creating a viable Palestinian state. The demands of the people are for universal human rights, not for an Islamic state. Only 2 dozen dumbasses in Gaza came out to mourn bin Laden. The overall majority in Cairo aren't crying over him.
I have to point out though, they're not going to take to the streets and celebrate his death because they're not crazy about us coming into other countries and killing people, whether they think he deserves it or not. But most of the complaining is about how all this wall-to-wall OBL coverage is taking away from the real stories of Syria, Libya, Yemen, and Bahrain. If people in this region would rather focus on whats going on in their own countries than the injustices carried out by the American government onto Muslims, it shows a lot about how irrelavent Al Qaeda has become.
Wed, 05/04/2011 - 8:06am
#13
He Died a Warriors Death
Seeing as how bin Laden admitted his guilt in 9/11 and everything else, I'm doubtful there would have been a trial. No matter what he would have been found guilty & most likely sentenced to death by any court.
He was asked to surrender and refused. I'm pretty sure things happened so fast that the Navy Seals didn't know whether or not he was armed so they shot to kill as they were trained to do in such a situation.
bin Laden saw himself as a warrior for God, a soldier, and that's how he died, as a warrior, as a soldier. He didn't spend his last days in a cage, a prison. If it were up to him, I think he'd prefer this end to his life.
All the celebrations of his death though... its terrible. I can understand people being overjoyed by it. So many here lost so much and revenge can be so sweet, but still... it just seems so wrong on so many levels. Maybe if I had lost someone close to me I'd feel differently.
Wed, 05/04/2011 - 2:39pm
#14
I think of him like one of
I think of him like one of those Mexican drug lords. Write him a narcocorrido and lets move on.
Wed, 05/04/2011 - 10:44am
#15
death cab for dumbies
americans are weird, and the media exploits us every chance they get. celebrations happen because the media tells people to celebrate. americans listen and do what we're told. i was not surprised by people's reactions one bit. just as i am not surprised by the back lash of other people's reactions. the media is always at the pulse of both sides because people "toon" in when there is controversy. the beauty is, there is no right or wrong, there is only emotion. and if you well up with joy at the idea that a terrorist superstar has been assassinated, then good for you. if you think killing is wrong in any manner, then good for you. there will be another celebration of death just as there will be another back lash to that celebration. just as there will be the mourning of death, there will be celebration and we will see and hear about it all because of our meddling, peddling media.
Thu, 05/05/2011 - 9:39am
#16
ABCDE
I was here in NYC during the attack on 9-11.
I was not in the Middle East when U.S. Forces (Reagan, Clinton, Bush) attacked, upsurped, and/or occupied prior to 9-11.
Some liken it to a bully going over to a boy's house and beating him up every day for a year and then the boy one day going over to the bully's house and throwing a spit ball.
We saw a boy throw a spit ball, but we never saw the bully beat the boy.
(Of course lives being lost in the towers is not the same as someone getting hit by a spitball, but people being killed both directly and indirectly overseas is not the same as being beaten up.)
Sat, 05/07/2011 - 9:33am
#17
2 things
that randomly pop into my head about this story this week.
1. Very smart strategic move for The President to honor Islamic burial rituals despite the fact that having a body would help dispel conspiracy theories. It shows a level of sensitivity and respect that OBL never had.
2. Damn the press loves a blood trail. I still can't turn around without hearing or reading more details about this event and it's been nearly a week. It's time to move on. The only uplifting bit of news I've gotten from it this week was from an interview I saw with a retired Navy SEAL who is hawking his book off the back of this event. The book is about applying important concepts that he learned as a SEAL in order to be more successful in business and everyday life. The thing he said that I agree with whole heartedly is that: "You immediately meake yourself stronger when you start to think about other people."
Sat, 05/07/2011 - 5:37pm
#18
I just want to nitpick on
I just want to nitpick on thought #1. I think it had everything to do with strategy and that it was indeed smart. Therefore, I don't think genuine sensitivity or respect really came into play. I'm not sure how much respect or sensitivity OBL ever had; is there a proper way to kill 3,000 people? What makes OBL a murder/maniac and Harry Truman a "commander in chief" regarding the decision to drop the bombs on Japan? I would really like someone to lay out what constitutes "murder" and "collateral damage" in all of this (if they can).
Personally, I think it's BS, and I don't think anyone deserves their "moment" to be happy about the death of OBL without reflecting on the United States' sensitive and respectful killing of civilians.
Sat, 05/07/2011 - 10:50pm
#19
The people who are concerned
The people who are concerned about the way he was buried according to "Islamic Tradition" are probably upset with the the fact that he was buried at sea and that he was shot in a targeted assassination. They're also very concerned about civilian casualties in US targeted bombings and our military aid to Israel used to enforce the occupation.
People in the region aren't really impressed with token gestures by the US, maybe in the beginning when Obama was supposed to have brought some change to our Middle East policy, but no ones optimistic now.
Also, if we want the government to show us bin Laden kill photos, we can't complain about Arab media showing footage of dead Americans being cruel and insensitive. Although I've seen enough dismembered bodies the past few months following Syria and Libya...
Sun, 05/08/2011 - 12:10am
#20
I don't understand this
I don't understand this statement? Can you elaborate? Thanks. : "Also, if we want the government to show us bin Laden kill photos, we can't complain about Arab media showing footage of dead Americans being cruel and insensitive. Although I've seen enough dismembered bodies the past few months following Syria and Libya..."
You don't think there has been Change in the middle east?
Also do you think the token gesture means anything to Muslims in Americal?
Sun, 05/08/2011 - 2:25am
#21
There has been change in the
There has been change in the Middle East, Obama and America are not responsible for any of it.
I don't think Muslims in America are that impressed either. If they're happy/satisfied he's dead and we didn't drop in the fact that we gave him Muslim funeral rites, would they be any less happy or satisfied? If they are critical of the fact that we did not take him alive, is the fact we washed his body according to Islamic tradition before we dumped him in the ocean going to make them criticize less? We gave him a burial at sea so his followers could not have a place to gather to mourn for him, how exactly is the way we prepared his body before we did it supposed to diminish the severity of the message we're sending?
I don't think there's anyway for us to release the photos without it turning into trophy footage, especially with the way the 24 hour networks operate. Even if they release it for the sake of information, it will turn into trophy footage as soon as Sanjay Gupta is called on to assess the damage of the head wound and the forensic ballistic team determines from what angle he was shot at. When Al Jazeera showed footage of the dead soldiers during the Iraq War they didn't stand around and analyze exactly how long it took our soldiers to die- they either used the footage raw or it was used in a larger story about events on the ground. Which is more exploitative?
Trophy footage or not, they're eventually going to have to release it. Watching the Arab Spring unfold via YouTube and Twitter, it's an endless stream of carnage. If they release it now, it would hardly stand out. They can release it Friday afternoon US time so it can coincide with the video uploads from the aftermath of the weekly protests in Syria. If I were in the Obama administration, I would recommend releasing it May 16th. There are calls for the 3rd Palestinian Intifada on May 15- if it actually happens, nobody in the region will be paying attention to care about the OBL pics.
Sun, 05/08/2011 - 10:23am
#22
Response
There has been change in the Middle East, Obama and America are not responsible for any of it.
Sorry, I disagree. How much they are responsible is debatable but I don't think you can deny US influence in the Middle East. At least a little. Even if we're just talking about the influence of social media and the internet. And The War(s)? I'm not saying it was all good but there's clearly some influence here.
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I don't think Muslims in America are that impressed either.
I also respectfully disagree with your statement here. Though of course neither of us could possibly speak for "All" American Muslims. I do think that it offers some level of consideration and respect. I'm not saying that it's better than if they would have caught him alive and tried him in a World court. But I think it means something. I think that people, governments, and religions are all much more similar than we think. It is our apparent respect for other's freedoms and customs that set us apart....
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I agree with your statement about the trophy footage but I don't think they will officially release photos. I don't think they need to. I think the photos have already been leaked on the internet? If they haven't then they will be. I think even thought the news is everywhere now I think we'll probably see the government moving on and stop mentioning his name. In about a year he'll be marginalized like Saddam Hussein.
Sun, 05/08/2011 - 1:05pm
#23
I'm not saying that America
I'm not saying that America doesn't have influence over the Middle East, but the Arab spring did not start because they want to be more like us. They were asking for universal rights, not American or Western rights. They didn't stand up because they received encouragement from the United States or other Western powers, a fruit seller in Tunisia set himself on fire out of desperation after being humiliated by a local policeman and people just had enough. In fact, everyone knew that America's talk of reform in the region was bull. You can't express concern about the prevalence of torture within the judicial system when you use that very system as the torture outsource post for your war on terror detainees. Omar Soliman was our guy, and there are a lot of people in the government who are very sad to see him gone. As for the use of technology, it was the activists using these sites as a tool to spread their message, not the presence of the technology itself. Otherwise, there are countries with heavy Facebook and technology infiltration that have not launched successful calls for revolution. Saudis have all the latest gadgets and are very well connected to the Internet, but calls for a day of rage did not result in anything. Until the people are so sick of their government that they're willing to take to the streets to see the government fall, there won't be a revolution.
If I used friends and family instead of followers- it ends up being The United States deprived Osama's friends and family the opportunity to bury him and by dumping his body into the sea, were also denying them a place to gather to mourn him. Of course I don't mean to speak for all Muslims but how can you ignore that point and think that the ritual supersedes the ability for his loved ones to carry out his last wishes. Wasn't your initial statement that we treated him better than he treated his victims. He denied thousands of families the bodies of their loved ones and so we denied his family his body.
Sun, 05/08/2011 - 2:32pm
#24
I'm not saying that America
I'm not saying that America doesn't have influence over the Middle East,
Sorry, but that's exactly what you said??
the Arab spring did not start because they want to be more like us.
I never said it did.
I think the US often finds itself in this Catch 22 of how much and who it should help in the Middle East. Our influence there is very complex and not always good. It ranges from us spreading pics of the revolution in Cairo to gain world news coverage on face book to the amount of oil based products we buy. I think we have a lot to learn from each other.
=============
how can you ignore that point and think that the ritual supersedes the ability for his loved ones to carry out his last wishes.
He was a very religious man. From what I understand ritual superseded everything with him.
Wasn't your initial statement that we treated him better than he treated his victims. He denied thousands of families the bodies of their loved ones and so we denied his family his body.
He had plenty of time to make peace with his family. This is was the life he chose for himself. Family members of 9-11 just woke up one day and they're loved ones were gone with no warning.
I'm not saying that there weren't ulterior motives. Politically speaking it could be argured that it was a smart move. I think more could have been accomplished, in the big picture, if he were captured and put on a trial in a world court for crimes against humanity. But this administration decided not to go that route. They've got a lot of other stuff to worry about I gues? I think the burial thing was an attempt at showing some respect for the Islamic religion as a whole which (some might argure) is more than what OBL did. I think it was an attempt to show that we don't judge the religion. We just judge the man. And of course the burial at sea helps keep his potential martyr status down so no one can visit the grave. I'm sure some would say he didn't even deserve a traditional Islamic burial. I don't know? There are a lot of different perspective on this. How much voice do you give to a homicidal maniac before he cut's your throat?
Sat, 05/07/2011 - 11:26pm
#25
.
Obama lies.
Sun, 05/08/2011 - 12:11am
#26
Everybody lies.
Everybody lies.
Sun, 05/08/2011 - 2:35am
#27
You can't excuse making up
You can't excuse making up specific details about an event, like using his wife as a human shield or engaging in a firefight when he may have, in fact, been unarmed under the phrase everyone lies. He's changing history to fit his rhetoric. Why not give Bush a boost and say that we found evidence that Saddam Hussein was working with Al Qaeda to develop WMDs to use against the United States? It serves the same purpose.
Sun, 05/08/2011 - 10:29am
#28
You can't excuse making up
You can't excuse making up specific details about an event, like using his wife as a human shield or engaging in a firefight when he may have, in fact, been unarmed under the phrase everyone lies.
You're right and I didn't. I don't know what happened. I wasn't there. If he was unarmed I think he should have been captured and tried in a World Court. None of us know the real details and we may never know. Am I going to stay up nights worrying about the death of a man who would not hesitate to kill everyone I love and know for some crazed religious belief??? Do you spend a lot of time getting pissed off about Charlie Manson?
Why not give Bush a boost and say that we found evidence that Saddam Hussein was working with Al Qaeda to develop WMDs to use against the United States? It serves the same purpose.
I wouldn't do that. Big difference here in my opinion. To lie is wrong. I agree. But we live in a world full of people who lie, to others and themselves, everyday. A lie that results in the death of a single homicidal maniac and a lie that results in a 10 year war killing thousands is different to me. Neither are good. But they are not the same in my opinion.
Sun, 05/08/2011 - 7:25am
#29
Sunday, 5-8-2011
Anyone who says everybody lies does not know all the same people that I do.
Even if that were true it would not make it noble or acceptable.
There is no way to know what the U.S. Govt. is ever doing.
They have been caught lieing many times.
I don't know when Osama was killed.
(I'm assuming he was.)
(I'm assuming he existed.)
He used his wife as a human shield?
He dyed his beard?
He was armed?
He made videos?
He was living in luxury?
You think if they did find him they didn't hold him down and take a shit on his face?
Why, because the "Yes We Can" freak says so?
You think he was "respectfully" buried at sea?
Why, because Mr. I'm-Going-To-Close-Guantanimo-Prison says so?
It is hard for me to believe that any bright human being would accept any official story from the government
No one can convince a believer until/unless he/she is willing to stop believing, but it is very dangerous for you to blindly accept this stuff.
Who knows what this government really does?
Sun, 05/08/2011 - 10:25am
#30
I agree.
I pretty much agree with everything you said here.
It is hard for me to believe that any bright human being would accept any official story from the government
Barry. Why do you always have to take your arguments to some kind of general personal judgement attack? It's a sign of weakness and makes me sad. But I can dig you're working it out. Stay strong.
Sun, 05/08/2011 - 7:01pm
#31
thoughts
I think the US often finds itself in this Catch 22 of how much and who it should help in the Middle East.MMM
The U.S. is against people in the Middle East doing what the Egyptians did.
First, the U.S. is against it.
If it starts becoming apparent that it may happen anyway then the U.S. starts backing off, acting neutral, and calling for calm, then, if it becomes totally apparent, or better yet if it happens anyway, the U.S. backs it.
We kill democratically elected officials and put dictators in their place.
Osama---
We killed him.
No respect there at all.
If I killed you and then buried you according to some burial rituals that were part of your religion it'd be murder.
It's psuedo-respect.
It doesn't count.
It's not real.
(This is assuming that they did any Islamic ritual at all---which I have grave doubts about.)
Sorry, I disagree. How much they are responsible is debatable but I don't think you can deny US influence in the Middle East.MMM
The U.S. does have influence, and it's negative.
It's all anti-freedom / pro-business.
Regarding Israel and Palestine--
We call for negotiations etc. with our mouths but back Israel with our money/might.
If you were going to do the trial thing, which I am against, the only fair way would have been an even trade.
Bush goes to trial in the Middle East and Osama goes to trial in America.
Bin Laden (rightfully, in my opinion) accused all of us Americans of supporting and being a part of a regime that entered his homeland uninvited and meddled incessantly in other people's affairs.
You MMM, support these things this country does, as do I, and on some level you and I deserve to be held accountable.
I disagree that blowing up yourself (and others) is martyrdom.
I disagree that you ever have the right to take a tower down with people in it.
I also disagree with most everything we do.
We.
This "Who me?" crap doesn't make it.
Speaking for myself, there's blood on my hands.
PS ----- MMM, I see you as a good, honest person.
What I think is what I think and I am much more interested in speaking my truth than worrying about political correctness or rules.
Mon, 05/09/2011 - 10:09pm
#32
F to the Yeah!
"Bush goes to trial in the Middle East and Osama goes to trial in America." - Barry Mother FUckin' Bliss!
Fri, 05/13/2011 - 11:08pm
#33
Osama Bin Laden Porn Stash? Pornography Discovered At Compound:
Sat, 05/14/2011 - 1:58pm
#34
"current and former U.S.
"current and former U.S. officials said on Friday."
Ugh...yeah...when the information is released by the U.S. officials, it's certainly isn't by accident. You kind of have to try and figure out why they released this information, why they want you to focus on it, and what (if anything) they may be hoping you stop focusing on.
Sat, 05/14/2011 - 2:11pm
#35
Agreed. PR is real aspect of
Agreed. PR is real aspect of any organization. But if it's true do you think it's relative?
Sun, 05/15/2011 - 10:50am
#36
You're trying to tell me
You're trying to tell me Muslim fundamentalists like porn? Already knew that- they all have satellite dishes that pick up Israeli (go figure) or European signals to get dirty channels. Also in Afghanistan, Pakistan, and the Arabian Penninsula, its not uncommon for young men to participate in homosexual acts with each other before they get married. They don't consider it to mean they're homosexual, its just lack of interaction with females and being young and hormonal.
It's meant to further tarnish Bin Ladens image, except everyone who supports him won't believe it and claim were making it up and those who figure we're probably not making it up also have their own secret vices and they're not going to hold it against the guy.
Sun, 05/15/2011 - 11:17am
#37
I'm not totally surprised but
I'm not totally surprised but it's somewhat news to me. I find the idea of fundamentalist Muslims watching Israeli porn in amazing thought.
I disagree slightly with your last statement. I think as with any religion there are people in all stages of being on the fence between more militant vs. tolerant stands when it comes to their spiritual beliefs. I think this info helps reveal the hypocrisy behind the more militant extremist behavior.
Sat, 05/14/2011 - 2:51pm
#38
I don't think it matters
I don't think it matters much. What it does do is incite humorous discussion about the whole killing incident. And while I'm not above a little chuckle, I think news like this can shift the publics general attitude about the whole incident. When you've just joked about Bin Laden's porn collection, will you return to the whole question of whether or not the killing was legal/justified with the same intensity? I think it's important to strip things down to what they really are: the United States killed an enemy combatant; they may or may not have had legal justification for doing so given the circumstances (previous enemy combatants have been captured and brought to trial when possible); they waffled on their story; they recently revealed information about the victim that--when you think about it--is a common and predictable behavior for any guy who would be hunkered down for a long time by himself; they released the information because they want the public to behave towards it in a certain way; they are now using drone strikes to kill a US citizen who supports the victims cause, forgoing any attempt to bring him in for a trial (Anwar al-Awlaki). Where someone runs with those facts is up to them, but I think it's healthy to go through that process: What is this? Why has it been presented to me in this way? If I accept this action by the US government, am I more willing to accept a similar action that may or may not be legal?
Sun, 05/15/2011 - 10:26am
#39
People in Glass Houses should not suicide bomb...
I agree with what you said about the timing of this press release but I don't think that makes it necessarily not true. I'm perfectly capable of seeing problems with how our Government dealt with OBL's demise while seeing the very ridiculous, dangerous, and hypocritical basis of most extremists like al-Queda. I'd feel the same way about Fred Phelps or Tom Metzger by the way.
Sat, 05/14/2011 - 3:49pm
#40
by Mr. Fish
http://www.truthdig.com/arts_culture/print/coming_of_rage_20110512/
excerpt: Which, I guess, brings us to the recent predawn killing of Osama bin Laden by U.S. Navy SEALs in Pakistan. It has been said that the two things that people don’t ever want to see being made are sausages and legislation. I’d amend that to say that doubly ugly to people is legislation that makes sausage. Wars are perhaps the most obvious example of that.
Wed, 05/18/2011 - 9:33am
#41
CIA flew stealth drones into Pakistan to monitor bin Laden house
Thu, 05/19/2011 - 6:18am
#42
Why they hate us (II): How many Muslims has the U.S. killed in t
As I watch the news & see the crowds rejoicing & celebrating over Bin Laden's death all I can think of is this is how they rejoiced & celebrated after the attacks on 9/11 against America.
People think this is the end? My gut tells me this is just the beginning.
Another life is lost. I don't even want to imagine how many more are going to be lost in the future.
In any case, I hope he rests in peace. I hope the world rests in peace now.
Yes, its me. You may now genuflect.