Sonicbids
Tue, 02/05/2013 - 2:15pm
Anyone know much about Sonicbids? http://www.sonicbids.com/about/ I feel like it's a racket. For the second time now we payed a non-refundable $30 entry fee to try and play an "official" showcase at SXSW and didn't get one. Boom! Thank you very much. Same rulesapply for a lot of festivals including CMJ etc... If we payed the entry fee for all the festivals we wanted to play we'd be shelling out hundreds of dollars with no guarantee of getting the gig. I feel like there should be an investigative article about this company and their connection music festivals. I could be wrong but I'm starting feel like they're the gun lobby of indie music.
Wed, 02/06/2013 - 12:04am
#2
In theory, every band that
In theory, every band that performs at SXSW, CMJ, and 100's of other festivals around the country do pay these fees. But I have a feeling that this isn't true. I'm wondering why?
Wed, 02/06/2013 - 12:33pm
#3
Hey MMM.
I could set up a festival where everyone pays an entry fee, but I could call you and ask you to play and promise you $530--$30 to be towards the entry fee everyone must pay.
Then I could say "Hey everyone pays the entry fee. Even MMM paid it and he's the headliner".
It still strikes me as bullshit.
Plenty of people put on festivals---great ones like Greenman--and you are contacted, offered a sum of money and a place to stay and that's the end of it.
As far as paying any fee for a chance to play that's outright ridiculous and they can go to hell.
Wed, 02/06/2013 - 12:53pm
#4
I think it's worth
I think it's worth investigating. Perhaps festivals have different policies depending on varying circumstances or who the artist is. Doesn't seem fair to me but I'd be up for educating myself (and others) about the whole thing.
We were required to join Sonicbids in order to apply to SXSW. I believe this qualifies us with membership for a certain amount of time (6 months to a year or something like that). You are required to build an electronic press kit when you join Sonicbids. This could be seen as useful for some bands. For us it was pretty much pointless and redundant. Every other booking opportunity we have received through Sonicbids has required an entry fee so we just ignored it. I can't imagine Arcade Fire paying $40 to play at SXSW but then again I can't imagine it being that big of a deal to them to have to do it either if they've already got the gig and plan on getting paid something to play there in the first place.
I'd love to hear from artists who have taken part in these festivals or use Sonicbids and see what their experiences are.
Wed, 02/06/2013 - 4:19pm
#5
Is there
any reason that any performer cares at all about playing SXSW and CMJ outside of attempting to get more exposure so they can get more gigs and be paid more money?
If this is the reason people attempt to play these things does this potential reward really appear, and if so how often?
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A post about sonicbids someone wrote 4 or 5 years ago where they typed "I can’t believe it took me so long to realise I was being cheated":
http://www.lobelia.net/wordpressblog/2008/06/120/
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Wed, 02/06/2013 - 10:42pm
#6
Sonicbids
Most of the stuff I read on Sonicbids say the same thing as this article. Google Sonicbids scam and you'll see more of the same.
Thu, 02/07/2013 - 8:34am
#7
I've used SonicBids from both ends
I used to have an account about 8-10 years ago with an EPK (electronic press kit). I never signed up for any contests with it.
However, for two years I did produce the Williamsburg Live Songwriting Contest that Jezebel Music used to put on. The entry fee for that was something like $10, three volunteers screened every single entry, and the money went to Jezebel, which had several part-time staff, a ton of volunteers, and never had a year out of the red. That was a fun contest, and while there were certainly some applicants who probably considered it a scam, from my end it wasn't at all. We usually had about 500-600 applications and whittled them down to 100 live performers that played at set shows around Brooklyn. Many songwriters who would have never met each other otherwise made some lasting friendships attending/performing at the contest events. The WLSC was the first place that I heard Ian Thomas, Lana Del Ray, WakeyWakey, Ingrid Michelson, and bunch of others.
Some sort of fee was definitely important. If there wasn't a fee, we would have been saddled with way more applicants, many of whom wouldn't have been as serious about participating, and many of whom would have sucked. So there's definitely something to be said for that, and I suppose only SXSW knows their budget and how they actually run their screening process.
So entree fees can be practical, and contest screening can be legit.
Lach had an idea once to use Sonicbids for the antifolk festival, for just one slot out of 80-some participants. The idea was to generate some extra income for the booker. Which, despite the stories that circulate about Lach, seems like a fair maneuver. Way more work goes into those festivals than a normal week of booking, and there certainly isn't extra pay (nor can Sidewalk afford to pay extra, as the books I've had a chance to see can attest to: the festivals have always been scheduled for the two slowest times of the year since the venue needs every penny it can get during the dead of winter and the August vacation season).
Thu, 02/07/2013 - 4:09pm
#8
BK! Thanks so much for
BK! Thanks so much for responding to this. I've had my share of experience in the thankless and non lucrative world of booking and festival running. But I never thought of making money off of artists with absolutely zero return for them. Sure, I'll take all the free help I can get but OJ has always been an open resource for those involved to use to help take their art where they want it to be. I heard someone describe the Sonicbids thing as even worse than pay-to-play. More like pay-to-maybe-play but probably not.
I'm down for trying to see both sides of this but this statement doesn't sit right with me.:
"Some sort of fee was definitely important. If there wasn't a fee, we would have been saddled with way more applicants, many of whom wouldn't have been as serious about participating, and many of whom would have sucked. "
Assuming someone who doesn't want to pay $10 or $40 just to apply for a music festival translates into them automatically being less serious or talented than someone who does just doesn't add up to me. In fact, an argument could even be made for the opposite.
My other question would be: Did all performers have to pay the fee? If some did and others didn't then you're setting up a false pretense that by paying the fee there is a level playing field and all available slots are up for grabs based upon the opinions of the team judging the entries.
Thu, 02/07/2013 - 4:49pm
#9
Yes, everyone had to pay.
Yes, everyone had to pay. Even some of our close friends who we were fans of had to pay, enter a song, and be screened like everyone else. There were even some times when people we knew didn't make it through the screening because the song they chose wasn't that great. For example, I might be screening someone with two other volunteers and know the artist we were listening to, while the other two volunteers didn't. There were times when the one or both of the other volunteers weren't moved by a submission and the artist almost (or maybe didn't) move on to the live portion of the contest.
Basically, Sonicbids is just a tool with a certain revenue-generating model. I don't think there's anything wrong with making money off the artist as long as your straight forward with them and clear about what they should or shouldn't expect. It's their choice to click "submit." Anyone who doesn't want to participate doesn't have to.
Thu, 02/07/2013 - 8:08pm
#10
Fair enough. It still feels a
Fair enough. It still feels a bit like bottom feeding to me. I'd be interested to see what the policy is with larger festivals like SXSW, CMJ, and NXNE etc. It was bad enough when you'd hear of a band that just drove all the way from Iowa to play for an empty room, at somewhere like the Sidewalk Cafe, at 8:30 on a Tuesday night during CMJ. Now you have an industry and a press constantly reinforcing the importance of these music festivals as places to check out the best new emerging talent. The thought of thousands of kids in their garages across the country shelling out $30 a pop just for a one in a thousand chance at booking the gig that I just described feels kinda wrong to me.
Then again, we should all be willing to believe in ourselves so much that we'd drive half way across the country to play to an empty room, even if it's just to learn that there are more efficient paths to success (But then again, maybe there aren't?). The thing that I wonder about are the large named acts that really help sell the whole mega music festival/ music media machine thing. I'd be curious to know how they feel about Sonicbids?
I suppose, all money aside, in light of your description of the process of actually using Sonicbids to curate a festival, I'm not convinced that it's even the best tool for choosing the "best" artists for a festival.
Fri, 02/08/2013 - 6:44pm
#11
Thanks for the comments above.
Why are some folks interested in playing CMJ and SXSW?
Just recognition and maybe more money later, right?
PS I would not pay a $5 fee to possibly do anything, let alone play a gig at a small club.
If I see "fee" and "possible" together I delete, possibly as spam.
Fri, 02/08/2013 - 8:02pm
#12
Fair enough. I believe it's
Fair enough. I believe it's called an "Entry Fee" or "Processing Fee." One justification is that it pays for the time of the people that have to go through and choose the bands.
I can't speak for everyone for why they would want to play those festivals but for us exposure & networking are probably the main reasons. I also really enjoy being a part of something big like that. If we were chosen we'd have access to the panels and, whether I agree with the trends or not, I actually find it all kind of interesting. I have divided feelings about going to festivals as a spectator but I usually end up liking them in a sort of musically glutinous kind of way.
Would you pay the fee if you knew you were guaranteed the gig? Or if the fee was waved for you or even if you were offered money to perform, would you have a problem with them charging a fee for other bands to apply?
Sat, 02/09/2013 - 11:15am
#13
MMM,
I am honored you are interested enough to ask.
Would you pay the fee if you knew you were guaranteed the gig?
If everyone that paid the fee was guaranteed a gig, then maybe, but why would I pay money to perform?
Exposure?
If I am interesting enough someone will find out about me without me paying SXSW.
I can play Sidewalk (still--though not as often as I used to be able to).
Or if the fee was waved for you or even if you were offered money to perform, would you have a problem with them charging a fee for other bands to apply?
Sounds weird but if I were offered money and the fee was waived I'd probably take the gig.
My reasoning being that every artist should decide for themselves what to do in this case.
My hope would be that no one would pay the fee and only people asked to play for money with the fee waived would be willing to perform.
If you are naive and immature and fame hungry and you decide to pay a fee I don't have the right to stop you from making a fool of yourself andf learning a lesson the hard way.
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The following is for the die-hard what does Barry think fan:
I am almost never asked to play, not even for free--so those scenarios that MMM presents are not ones i have truly dealt with except philosophically.
I will retell a story though.
Years and years ago I played a gig at Sidewalk.
I gave a solid performance.
The place was pretty full that night, probably because someone more popular/famous than myself was also scheduled to play--though I have pulled a crowd of some size (40 people maybe) a few times myself (not often).
I was approached after the show by a man who said he'd like for me to contact some guy at some Bleeker street (blues?) club (not Kenny's Castaways---a silly joint I played for free in about 6 times in 1999).
The guy came acroos like he'd like me to play their.
I thought Bleeker street bars were pretty horrendous, but most imporantatly I got the sense that this offer was based on the fact that there was a crowd of folks watching me that night, and that it was not based on the fact that I was good or interesting or important artistically.
I decided not to call the guy.
Why would I play at a place that probably did not believe in me but would use me to pull a crowd when I could play at Sidewalk where I was genuinely appreciated and where Lach believed in me so much that he would give me a gig even if it was not a great business move?
I have never regretted that decision--and yes I know the whole thing is very small scale stuff.
I also know that that blue's place would have been dissapointed to find out that I did not have a crowd that followed me around.
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Sat, 02/09/2013 - 4:03pm
#14
Thanks Barry (&BK). I value
Thanks Barry (&BK). I value both of your opinions.
Sun, 02/10/2013 - 12:52am
#15
A question
that I have for BK is why have a Williamsburg Live Songwriting Contest to begin with, especially when it requires asking musician's to pay money for an opportunity to be considered?
Another question I have is does anybody seriously believe that songs can compete with each other?
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MMM, what are the panels you refer to regarding (one of) the festivals?
What are they set up for, critique?
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Sun, 02/10/2013 - 1:57am
#16
This is what I mean by
This is what I mean by panels: http://sxsw.com/music/news/2013-music-panels-mini-preview
Sun, 02/10/2013 - 11:42am
#17
Has anyone here attended any of these panels?
I suppose from a business point of view there would be things to learn by going to these.
I do get somewhat concerned that they often just tell folks to think inside a certain box though.
I have never attended any music biz class so I have no experience with it.
I have worked jobs though--and what I have seen of the business world is cut throat, hateful, propagandaish, hypocrisy.
Wed, 02/13/2013 - 8:58pm
#18
All I can say is that it was
All I can say is that it was probably the most enjoyable of these kinds of events that I can imagine. I didn't conceive the contest, but I produced it for the third and fourth year. Gabriel Levitt, who is a hellava guy, came up with the idea. Everyone had a good time. The winner got $5000 and the runner up prices were cool. Goodie bags with music store vouchers for all contestants. Plus, imagine if you did one of these contests, but all your correspondence was with me, Bee K. Can't be too bad, right? :)
Songs were screened in the same way they were judged in the contest. Three judges. You give a 0-5 rating for lyrics, voice, composition, originality, and "intangible." The "intangible" was the interesting criteria: Person A could have ok lyrics, a terrible voice, play one chord, seem unoriginal, but if there was this "intangible" quality to the songwriter and their performance that just blew you away for reasons you can't describe, you could rate them a "5" for that. Person B who had a great voice, decent lyrics, interesting chords, seem to have their own sound, but completely bore you or rub you the wrong way, and based on the intangible criteria, they could lose out to Person A. You tallied up your ratings, added it to the other two judges, and the total was out of 75.
The judges were different each night. A DJ from WFMU might be a judge at one event, songwriter Laura Cantrell did it a few times, Paolo from the Deli, I think they got the president of a label like Matador to sit on on one night.
No one took any of it too seriously, though the prizes were real.
Wed, 02/13/2013 - 9:05pm
#19
Actually...
It didn't take much googling to find one of my old articles on the event. You'll note Creaky Boards in one photo. The blonde in another photo was a sweetheart named Lizzy Grant, who eventually renamed herself Lana Del Ray.
http://jezebelmusic.com/NYC/featurewlsc2006cd.html
I feel like there were aspects of the contest that didn't sit right with me...the antifolk festivals are more enjoyable for me to put together. But it was fun.
And I probably wouldn't be booking Sidewalk if I hadn't done this for two years. Through events like this, I walked into the antifolk scene already knowing about 40-50 people who overlapped with the other events I was involved in, which was really helpful.
know nothing about this organization, but I would not pay an entry fee for any possibility of performing.
Come on, Matt.
Fuck that, bro.
PS I can see agreeing to pay some organization a percentage for any gig they got me (maybe), but not this is degrading.
http://barrybliss.info/