Moving the M Sloan thread to here so it doesn't get lost part 1
Thu, 09/02/2010 - 8:11pm
# Part I: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman?
Posted by M Sloan [User Info] on 8/20/2010, 2:16 pm
Message modified by user M Sloan 8/20/2010, 10:12 pm
I’m sorry, I’ve gotta take a dick out of my mouth for a moment here, cause that “real women” thread’s got my gag reflex bad and I’ve been barfing all over the place.
What’s called for here is a new thread. That “real women” thread is beyond repair and has undoubtedly lost significant sections of the audience by now, and the subject I’d like to discuss here includes the “real woman” thread but has a broader breadth and a different point altogether: That is, the subject of the support of or lack of support and even abuse of women in the antifolk scene.
So. Let’s start this again:
Hey people! what do you think of the fact that this anti-folk scene’s managed to attract a number of female artists who make personal, original, thoughtful art despite the fact that they’ve woken up to a big fat “#### you”, “not interested” “we’d prefer if you sucked a dick” from the world everyday of their lives?!
We enjoy the associations of artists such as:
Nan Turner
Diane Cluck
Phoebe Kreutz
Randi Russo
Phoebe of Blurple
Julie of Ching Chong Song
The woman in Shilpa Ray
Erin Regan
Yoko Kikuchi
Sara Lautman
Julie DeLano
Susan Hwang
Angela Carlucci
(And not to fail to mention some female artists of the non-performing variety such as writers and visual artists like):
Deenah Volmer
Kate Wheeler
Sarah Himmelfarb
myself
Is that not an honor?!
Why do you think these women associate themselves with our community? Do you think this scene is worthy of their gifts? Have we been saying “#### you”, “not interested” “we’d rather you sucked a dick” to them ourselves?
Here are a few facts for us anti-folkers to think about:
Bliss’ “Real Women do Real Things” thread got 82 responses but you can count the number of responses that talked about the women artists in the anti folk scene on one hand.
Nearly all of the rest of the responses focus on the work of Lady Gaga: an entity that exists purely for our personal pleasure and intrigue- an entity which we call a woman. However, unlike a real woman, Lady Gaga ceases to exist the minute we turn off the screen, what memories we have of her: the patter of her breath, the tone of her skin, the touch of her hand, the visage of her pleasure and triumph is nothing other than what we wanted to feel, a fantasy we’re furnished, like a cast latex pussy. Some of us have genuine feelings for her. Who the real woman is who plays the role of Lady Gaga we cannot tell… she went to elite schools, she was a waitress. We become interested in her. We wait in the parking lot until the wee hours of dawn, watching the employee exit of “Kuma’s” gentlemen’s club: will her makeup be washed off? Will she be as beautiful? As tall? Does she drive the Saturn or the Ford? Which way will she turn at the light?
If I were to judge solely based on the direction of that thread, knowing nothing else about this scene of people I’d a thought it’s obvious that if presented with the choice of going to show at Sidewalk that’s an all female bill vs. going to Kuma’s gentlemen’s club, hands down, 95% of this crowd would be at “Kuma’s”—some inside, some in the parking lot, some across the street with their car pulled over, shaking their heads in remorseful disapproval, binoculars, hand in their pants. 95% of OJ responders have chosen to engage with, give attention to, discourse over an artificial woman in the place of doing so over a whole host of real women (listed), many of whom we know personally, women who’s work we associate with our identity as a scene, women who are members of our community. Artificial woman was overwhelmingly the preferred “recipient” of our interest and thoughtful discussion over real woman. What impressions would you expect a “real woman” to derive from that thread about the anti-folk community? Does anyone think this is sad?
A poster in that thread quoted Joanna Newsom commenting on Laday Gaga (Joanna makes personal, original and thoughtful art—she shares her reality, she’s a “real woman”) and this other person on the board who posts a lot responds by saying “Joanna Newsom should go suck a dick”—titling the post as such. That post got three responses and almost an hour of time before it’s misogyny was challenged. This “dick poster” eventually modified the title to more metaphorical phrasings, and meanwhile has made multiple other posts cracking at other phallic metaphors such as “’eat a twinkie’” presumably for it’s comic effect. 16 posts and over 24 hours later Dick Poster posts and “apology” saying: “I'm sorry I mentioned the consumption of a phallus.” He immediately followed this with a posting of another public figure (Ice T) telling a different woman (Aimee Mann) to “eat a bowl of dicks” with Dick Poster’s added commentary that “sometimes there’s no other way to say it” —presumably also for comic effect. Dick Posters’ use of the dick or phallus as the instrument of gagging and dismissing the women he disagrees with is particularly violent as it’s humiliating her with what is historically the main instrument of violence towards women.
Telling a woman to “suck it” is especially humiliating because:
you literally cant talk when you’re sucking a dick, it’s degrading to be sexually violated against your will and dick’s have been used as weapons with which to physically violate an subjugate women for all of memorable history.
Dick-as-weapon is comparable to other symbols of hate weapons like lynching posts or burning crosses for African Americans or Swastika’s to Jews. If this poster was carrying on like this to a similar intensity towards black people, or jewish people, with a poster horsing around with lynching trees and swastikas like it’s play guns and all’s fair in love and war, would this be tolerated just the same?
What ideas does the fact that all this has transpired the way it has reinforce? What messages does this put out?
Is this not abuse? Do all the women in this scene have to suck Bee K’s dick in order to participate in community forum?
(btw: This same individual asserts that children being raised on entertainment figures like Lady Gaga is harmless fun, and seems to feel fond of his own experience growing up with similar pop content. I don’t think he could have proven himself wrong on that any better if he’d tried. I think this individual has been harmed.)
let’s go outside of that thread. Let’s look at the scene outside of the internet:
Naturally, different artists in a scene will recieve different amounts of attention, hype and buzz. We’d like to think this is in proportion to things like the level of artistic accomplishment of the individual, how good the individual is as self-promotion, how long they’ve been around, etc.
Has anyone here noticed a difference in attention and public support level that is somehow out of proportion with these variables? Has anyone noticed a disproportion of public support that correlates to gender lines? If so, which gender do you find receiving disproportionately more support? How does this disproportion balance against the greater culture, as in, does it reinforce it or counter-balance it?
(Continued in Part II)
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* Part II: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman?
Posted by M Sloan [User Info] on 8/20/2010, 2:54 pm, in reply to "Part I: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman? "
Fact: we live in a culture that is male-dominated and phallocentric. Women are denied the freedom to participate in society and self actualize, at the same levels that men enjoy, by means of violence, coercement, deprivation and extortion. All of the women on the list at the top of this post create what they do despite this. Any time a woman does anything primarily for herself and her personal values instead of primarily for the satisfaction of the demands and needs of to male society and other individuals, she is resisting something. To put it in common terms: Everytime a woman opens her mouth to say something true to her experience in this world she’s gotta take a dick out of her mouth first.
Never take anything a woman says for granted and never forget the dick.
Do we, day-to-day members of the anti-folk community forget the dick?
In other words, Is the level of conciousness about the daily condition that our own “other half” lives within in the anti-folk community as high as many of our self-proclaimed “pro-woman”, “feminist” members would like to think?
Would you say that most or even many anti-folkers actively and regularly celebrate the inspiring display of the strength of the human spirit in any performance or creation of one of our female artist friends? If you think that level of conciousness and support is common, what percentage of shows do you think are booked without any thought given to making sure some women are definitely included in the booking? How many all-male or all male-based events have you seen this summer? How often do you hear cricticism of “sausage fests” when they transpire?
If you really thought of the fact that for every one of your beloved, female artist friends every morning of their life they woke up to a big fat “#### you”, “not interested” “we’d prefer if you sucked a dick” from the world, --if you actually thought of that everyday that you woke up and felt the sunshine and breathed the air, wouldn’t you start to make a regular and consistent gestures to show your beloved female friends- every time you see them or an opportunity arises—that they are welcome, that you’re interested in them—yes! Them- beings that are not you nor for you, and you have no interest in making it about you with them!—you’re interested in what they do, and that you’d prefer if they continued on finding and expressing their truth?
But what opportunities have we wasted, Anti-folkers?:
Again, Bliss’ “Real Women do Real Things” thread got 82 responses but you can count the number of responses that talked about the women artists in the anti folk scene on one hand.
In that posting Bliss posted a video of Yoko Kikuchi playing the Powel Street festival in Vancouver just a few weeks ago.This was an all-expenses-paid, paid-gig trip to perform her original compositions.This was her first time receiving any such honor. This was significant. How many of us congratulated her? Gave her celebratory gifts? Told her how proud we are of her? A video of her performance was posted right here on OJ, this was an opportunity to do so!
How many of us make a special effort to go out to the the gigs of these beloved female artist friends of ours? How many thought it was important to go to Nan Turners’ show in Staten Island last night, for example? How many of those people were men?-- Has anyone seen what Nan’s solo stuff is like nowadays? This lady’s going out on a limb! It’s crazy! Does anyone think that’s totally inspiring?!
Same thing with Diane Cluck! Last week she played Sycamore’s again. She was backed on drums by Anders Griffin. She was the only performer on the bill- extended set! How many from the anti-folk community came to see her that night in comparison to her show there just a few weeks before when she played on a bill with a male anti-folk musician? We’re talking about a woman who’s arguably a musical genius here, folks!
And you can’t cop out on the excuse of the fact that many women artists are pretty bad at self-promotion in comparison to their male peers. Cause if you’re really conscious of the very real discouragement these ladies are dealing with you’ll anticipate they’d be lacking in self-promo habits and in this anticipation, you’d, again, make it a point, to tell that woman artist, repeatedly and regularly that you want to be informed about her gigs, that you’re interested and motivated, and you’ll update yourself about what projects she’s working on and keep an eye out. Being into women artists is like being into any underground scene, you gotta do extra work to know what’s going on. If the whole scene is underground, then you gotta go under even the underground to really find out what’s up with the women. It takes conscious effort- but it’s totally worth it!
Abstaining from male-dominant, woman-abusive behaviour such as abstaining from making macho music that disparages woman, for ex. is really only half of the work to be done as far as supporting our sisters goes. A lot of people who dislike sexism and say they "support womens’ rights", only aim to behave neutrally—aka in a manner that’s not oppressive—towards women. But what does that do for the women? The women still have to deal with all the actively oppressive people-- who’s supporting them in thier struggle against oppression? The merely abstinent, ‘neutral” people sure aren’t, they’re too busy feeling good about themselves for not violating women’s rights (as if that alone is doing her a favor and it's not just her goddess-given right) to see that their sister needs aid and that she’s still very much alone in her struggle.
I can personally attest that as a female who’s an artist I’ve been drawn to the Anti-folk scene because it’s anti-corporate, human-based aesthetic ideology is harmonious with my human, sentient life form- this distinguishes Anti-folk from so many other arts and culture scenes that are dehumanizing which then always includes dehumanizing women. I feel I can exist as a a human being that happens to be female within this scene.
But I do believe that in the Anti-folk scene, the bar for our concientiousness towards women can be raised significantly higher than where it presently is.
I do believe there is a pronounced lack of support of women in this scene, I see it and I also sense from my female anti-folk artist friends that they find in me a degree of support for them that they don’t find enough elsewhere in most other community members—they show signs of support starvation within the community. And that makes me sad, cause these ladies are brilliant and inspiring and they deserve a lot more love than what they’re getting from us!
But I do also feel hopeful.
I feel Anti-folks’ high attraction rate for people who dislike sexism and who’ve made conscious efforts to reject oppressive behaviors towards women, along with the fact that we do have a good handful of strong female minds expressing themselves here makes this a community that has an unusually high potiential to very quickly transform from a “refreshingly less oppressive to women” scene to being a scene that’s powerfully supportive of women. This is the whole thing that got me out of bed in the middle of the night to write this post. We have a lot of potential here.
I believe a lot of “neutral” types would totally be down with raising their conciousness to being more actively supportive if the idea was just put in their heads. (Actively supporting women?! Who’d a thought!)
And if that happens this scene’s gonna blow up.
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o Re: Part II: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman?
Posted by JuanGSky [User Info] on 8/20/2010, 3:13 pm, in reply to " Part II: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman? "
Message modified by user JuanGSky 8/20/2010, 3:14 pm
I kind of felt this way at Huggabroomstock this past weekend.
The list of performers seemed like it was mostly those people who always play and I found myself wishing that Little Cobweb, Julie Delano, Diane Cluck, and/or Tight Little Ship had been asked to play.
That said, I did enjoy the festival and thought it was quite musically diverse.
Huggabroomstik were also very good. I hadn't seen them in a long time, it felt like. It was nice to see Liv playing bass again.
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+ Re: Part II: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman?
Posted by Justin [User Info] on 8/20/2010, 3:19 pm, in reply to "Re: Part II: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman? "
Message modified by user Justin 8/20/2010, 3:22 pm
I'm not going to pick this apart very well, but I feel slightly resistant to the notion that you need to support an artist on the basis of anything other than enjoyment and/or friendship.
I have seen Nan Turner play lately. She's awesome. I was busy, and wasn't going to make a trip to Staten Island last night, though.
I haven't seen Diane Cluck. Maybe I will at some point because people say her music is good.
About five people watched my set at Huggabroomstock last week. Five times as many people (if not more) watched Schwervon! and Berth Control.
So it goes.
When it comes down to it, it's about WHAT YOU LIKE. And that's how it should be.
We can wish people would like certain things for certain reasons (Joan Baez's lyrics are smarter than Beyonce's), but most likely they won't.
I try not to be a sexist jerk, but really how is that going to affect what show I see on a Friday night?
Mary and Jon actually bring up a good point, though, about how shows are booked and how they can highlight certain types of performers.
Sex in a stable is a motion I'd table.
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+ I don't need to take advice about how to treat women from someone who is violent towards women.
Posted by neil [User Info] on 8/22/2010, 4:32 pm, in reply to "Re: Part II: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman? "
Message modified by user neil 8/22/2010, 4:39 pm
really Jon? I don't care if you have a problem with the way I booked Huggabroomstock. I didn't even want you there, dummy. the fact that you wanted to see Little Cobweb, Tight Little Ship, Diane Cluck and Julie Delano, actually makes me less inclined to book them next year, since I'd rather not encourage you to attend.
furthermore, since when are you a feminist? it was no more than two weeks ago that I witnessed you violently grab your own sister and drag her four feet from a conversation that she was willingly having with me and Luke. earlier this summer you got kicked out of Goodbye Blue Monday for trying to assault Yoko. is your brain so fuc ked up that you think that you're promoting equal rights by violently assaulting members of both genders equally? you do spend a lot of time with women, but from what I've seen, you treat them as your possessions. you try to manipulate them emotionally, and when that doesn't work you turn violent. You punched Darwin in the face when he first started dating Angela. You punched me in the face when my brother was seeing Kate Wheeler. You attacked Yoko when she and I first started seeing each other. and I'm not even going to get started on the racial bias that prompted you to assault Dashan twice and stab Hermes with a knife. you can claim it's just a coincidence if you want, but I see right through you.
yours was a classic passive-aggressive post. do you think that I don't get it? I do. the only thing that you want to complain about just happens to be the only thing that I was solely responsible for. fine. don't attend next time.
for the record. I didn't take the gender make-up of Huggabroomstock into consideration while doing the booking. for me to do so would have been disingenuous. even if the festival had been comprised entirely of male acts, I would have stood behind my booking choices. I booked who I wanted to book, and until someone offers to put in the time and money to help me organize Huggabroomstock, that's the way it's gonna be.
in conclusion: look inward, Jon.
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# Re: I don't need to take advice about how to treat women from someone who is violent towards women.
Posted by JuanGSky [User Info] on 8/23/2010, 12:30 pm, in reply to "I don't need to take advice about how to treat women from someone who is violent towards women."
I didn't assault yoko.
She took my glasses and I attempted to grab her and get them back.
Not the best way, obviously.
You could ask Preston who I was talking to when she did so and get the opinion of someone who actually saw the whole thing occur.
My punching you in the face had nothing to do with luke or kate.
I never assaulted Dashan. I didn't even start either of those fiascos.
But, you are right that I should look inward.
Thanks for this very unpleasant reminder.
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* Seeking Help.
Posted by JuanGSky [User Info] on 8/24/2010, 5:42 pm, in reply to "Re: I don't need to take advice about how to treat women from someone who is violent towards women."
Hi everyone,
I just wanted to say that I don't condone my own actions.
I don't condone violence.
I'm seeking help.
I'm checking out a 12-step program tonight.
A friend suggested I take a non-violent communication course and I'm going to look into that.
However, I'm not really sure of where to seek help for all my myriad problems.
I was wondering if anyone knew of any meetings or programs for aggression and/or depression?
Or of any life-skills courses they think would be helpful.
Anything would be great.
Thank you,
jon glovin
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o Re: Seeking Help.
Posted by johnjohn [User Info] on 8/24/2010, 6:10 pm, in reply to "Seeking Help."
Dude, you don't need a course to not touch people who do not want to be touched by you, you need only a modicum of willpower, and that is preexisting within everyone; search yourself for it (by yourself); don't let anything/anyone else complicate your search. I'm not speaking about the depression... about only the aggression.
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o Good for you!
Posted by MMM [User Info] on 8/24/2010, 7:55 pm, in reply to "Seeking Help."
Message modified by user MMM 8/24/2010, 8:07 pm
You rock! Keep me posted on this. By the way I have a small present for you. Don't get excited. It's not that big of a deal.
Take care!
"Always make new mistakes." -Esther Dyson
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o Re: Seeking Help.
Posted by jewlie [User Info] on 8/24/2010, 9:45 pm, in reply to "Seeking Help."
John, I think that's awesome. I know of a affordable therapy program at Columbia. I mean it's basic therapy , not focused on a particular area but if your interested I can give you the info. 12 step program sounds like a great step!
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+ Re: Seeking Help.
Posted by Tone [User Info] on 8/24/2010, 10:25 pm, in reply to "Re: Seeking Help."
Yeah Jon it will be hard but in the long run you wont regret it.
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+ Re: Seeking Help.
Posted by JuanGSky [User Info] on 8/25/2010, 3:42 pm, in reply to "Re: Seeking Help."
Julie, I am interested in that info.
I do currently see a therapist mostly paid for by the 9/11 fund, but thats drying up at the end of the year.
Matt, I'm sure whatever you have for me is awesome.
Thanks for the words, people.
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# Re: Seeking Help.
Posted by casey [User Info] on 8/25/2010, 6:18 pm, in reply to "Re: Seeking Help."
congratulations on that decision jon ... however this takes shape i'm sure it'll be worth it. i'm also glad to see that people mostly have been very encouraging.
it takes courage to decide something like this.
no hope! see? that's what gives me guts. big f/ucking shit! right now, man.
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* Re: Seeking Help.
Posted by johnjohn [User Info] on 8/25/2010, 8:26 pm, in reply to "Re: Seeking Help."
Message modified by user johnjohn 8/25/2010, 8:40 pm
I'm, let's say un-"glad," that the encouragement of JuanGSky has taken the shape of such a uniformed opinion. I encourage JuanGSky to first look long within himself, before looking within a room filled with others, because one is the more likely place than the other, for him to find what (existential medicine dropper) he requires in order to not lash out, next his inner "want to punch someone" threatens to actualize. I believe this earnest counter-suggestion to constitute greater encouragement of JuanGSky than does a smattering of written applause for his rightful recent bout, bout with the awareness that violence should be turned away from at every opportunity.
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o Hey John John
Posted by JuanGSky [User Info] on 8/26/2010, 2:19 am, in reply to "Re: Seeking Help."
I totally agree with you.
And think that what you're saying is really the bottom line,
but i also think a room full of others and stuff like that will probably help to keep one on an even keel with the whole project so as not to tip too much one way or the other.
thanks.
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o Re: Seeking Help.
Posted by danf [User Info] on 8/25/2010, 9:12 am, in reply to "Seeking Help."
Jon, that is great! You deserve to have control over those impulses. I hope you find a method that works for you.
.
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o Re: Part II: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman?
Posted by Bee K [User Info] on 8/20/2010, 3:22 pm, in reply to " Part II: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman? "
Sorry, no time to respond to this. I'm supposed to wake my daughter from a nap so we can go get her first soccer ball. Have fun.
BOOKING? LINGERING ISSUES RE: MY J NEWSOM POST? LOVE/HATE MAIL? IM ON OJ BOARD VACATION: I am easy to find and talk to! Sidewalk: Monday, Thurs, Sat night. Also PM or email ben AT sidewalkmusic.net
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o Re: Part II: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman?
Posted by casey [User Info] on 8/20/2010, 3:48 pm, in reply to " Part II: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman? "
I have things I would like to say about this post. But what I would really be interested in is reading what other women in this community have to say in response to it.
no hope! see? that's what gives me guts. big f/ucking shit! right now, man.
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+ Re: Part II: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman?
Posted by Phoebeee [User Info] on 8/20/2010, 4:27 pm, in reply to "Re: Part II: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman? "
Hmm...
Well, first of all, I'm glad that Mary posted this. I've been thinking about gender issues in our little world a lot lately. I am not one who is usually too concerned with gender. But I have been of late and I'm trying to figure out what's troubling me.
I avoided the original Barry post because I don't really like thinking of "woman musician" as a category on its own where you pit a Nan Turner against a Lady Gaga. They are doing totally different things. They just happen to both have hoo-has. It's like saying "Is Slick Rick or Dibs a real artist? Pick one."
Which is why I have also personally been turned off by Sidewalk "lady nights". I can see the value in them for some people and I was happy to be on the bill with some terrific gals when I did it. But it felt a little odd. I think a perceived need for a "Lady's Night" is a symptom of a problem and not a solution to that problem. I'd be really curious to hear what gals defend the "ladies nights" and why. We'd probably learn a lot. Also, I think a lot of the ladies nights have been set up by dudes (well-intentioned dudes to be sure. But it's interesting.)
And I'm generally not down with announcing a Woman Night because the implication is that women inherently have a shit-load in common. I mean, obviously we share some stuff. But it would be weird if there was "Asian Night" at sidewalk, wouldn't it? I would think it was weird. Or I guess you could do it once (are there enough Asian kids on the scene to even do such a thing? Hmm. Maybe that's another topic) but if it became a regular thing, it would be mega-odd.
I don't feel discriminated against in this scene. I don't think people like or dislike my music because I'm a girl. Maybe some things would be easier if I were a boy, but some things would be harder. There's no way to say for sure. Sure, sometimes I wish I were a boy just so I wouldn't have to deal with stupid sexual innuendo and shit, but that's just the world and I'm a part of the world too.
But I do feel like there can be a funny air sometimes and I have noticed some creeping misogyny in some lyrics in recent years. Lyrics from people that I don't think are bad, but maybe are careless and aren't examining what they are actually saying.
It's the creeping stuff that worries me. I am happy with the Wowz singing about being misogynists. (I know that I'm just talking about male performers again. Hmm...does that say something too?)
So I guess I don't feel unwelcome as a woman-songwriter-performer, but I do feel a little concerned as a plain-old-woman.
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o Thank you!
Posted by MMM [User Info] on 8/20/2010, 9:51 pm, in reply to " Part II: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman? "
Message modified by user MMM 8/20/2010, 9:52 pm
Hey M Sloan,
Thanks so much for expressing all this. There's a lot to think about here. Please, please, please!!! know that you are totally welcome and more so encouraged, personally by me, to continue to express yourself here as much as you want. Regardless of whatever hostile or intimidating statements you might find here by others please know that I very much appreciate your perspective. Thanks again for sharing.
MMM
"Always make new mistakes." -Esther Dyson
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o Re: Part II: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman?
Posted by nan [User Info] on 8/21/2010, 2:54 pm, in reply to " Part II: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman? "
thanks mary for your post. i would've posted sooner but have been battling a flu. yuck!
raising awareness
challenging people to think about their language
pointing out female artists in our community that aren't talked about as often.
all that is good stuff.
sometimes it feels dangerous to me to even talk about gender....like i feel i should be apologizing for even noticing that sometimes this board is at times dude heavy....though i think my feeling like apologizing and avoiding conflict is a HUMAN "my own psychology" issue ......not necessarily gender-specific.)
sleater-kinney sings, "culture is what we make it. now is the time to invent, to invent, to invent"
i think mary even posting something like this caused a shift....or is making people think a little...i feel braver about posting as a result-- some of what she said is extreme - but people hold extreme stances on this board A LOT about a zillion things.
i understand what phoebe was saying about the thing with women only nites...like it gets into the pigeon holing or there's something about it that's not taken seriously or it's put into this "genre" somehow that
feels limiting.
like being called a "girl band" or "female musician" can feel limiting ( though i use the phrase "girl band" a lot....maybe i shouldn't..... I happen to LIKE a lot of bands that have women in them but maybe i should think about another way to describe them....so that they can be known by their art and not just by their gender).
the thing is as artists i don't think anyone, male or female, wants to be limited. and i think we all want to be recognized and seen and have room to create the identities we want.
who wants to be known as only ONE THING?? (i.e. a "girl band")
i want to be multi-dimensional, twisting turning creating new identities in my art and myself all the time....
a lot of bands who i dig musically happen to be other women or mixed coed boy /girl bands - i often book nights where there are women playing because i like their art. i like a lot of guys that play music too - it's pretty mixed. but i am aware that i really want to support other women whose art i admire - and sometimes a little encouragement does help.... i do know more women artists that struggle with self-esteem and getting their stuff out there than men -
though maybe i don't talk to enough men about this....
I was speaking with darling don't dance (that danish band i love- whose music reminds me of the breeders/sonicyouth) about this and they said that
they wished they could be musicians first, women second. THe fact that they are 3/4ths women (the drummer is a guy) is usually an issue with the press. People are surprised that they are so good. They said they loved blasting people's expectations- especially men that would speak to them before their shows, condescendingly asking "oh are you going to sing pretty songs?"
and then they go onstage and rock the hell out. interesting that people would expect them to not rock, or to suck (!)
i find it totally inspiring when I see women shredding on the guitar *cough cough* sara lautman! the girl from screaming females. carrie brownstein. or rocking out the drums. janet weiss, christy davis, yoko kikuchi, shellshag drummer, georgia hubley.)
(npr did a great piece on being a female musician and a lot of people have interesting comments - celeb and non-celeb and local artists)
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=128564299
BUT the point darling don't dance were making about wanting to be known as "musicians" first, women second, is interesting because i think UNTIL there are a LOT MORE women playing music --as many if not more than men-
female musicians are going to be seen as "female musicians" and not just musicians....
there simply has to be MORE for it not to be an issue anymore! our community is special in that there are many talented women out there doing interesting honest brave work....and i think many people value them (and i have felt a lot of support too) but yes, there could be more recognition.
which is what i think barry's original post did.
and mary's...
i am thankful they put it out there.
and to the people that took the time to read mary's post and respond thoughtfully, i appreciate that.
oh yeah
(WHAT ABOUT JOFRANNA? HOLY SHITCAKES)
and THE BEST.
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+ EDITED: Before lightning strikes this message board...
Posted by Bee K [User Info] on 8/21/2010, 3:15 pm, in reply to "Re: Part II: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman? "
Message modified by user Bee K 8/21/2010, 3:30 pm
we should mention Debe Fucking Dalton.
She put together her own Ladies Night during the Winter AF Fest. Would anyone be brave enough to suggest to her that this was somehow a detrimental idea? I'd buy a ticket to hear her response!
It was a powerful night of performances. However: I remember noticing that putting together that all-female night for Debe definitely raised the amount of testosterone for the other nights. Consciously concentrating so many female performers on one night affected the whole event. No judgment as to whether this was good or bad. It was just one way to do things.
BOOKING? LINGERING ISSUES RE: MY J NEWSOM POST? LOVE/HATE MAIL? IM ON OJ BOARD VACATION: I am easy to find and talk to! Sidewalk: Monday, Thurs, Sat night. Also PM or email ben AT sidewalkmusic.net
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+ thanks for the shout out, nan.
Posted by jo [User Info] on 8/25/2010, 9:06 pm, in reply to "Re: Part II: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman? "
i'm not even getting into this argument, though. i've already come to the conclusion that i can do whatever i want with music. i don't need to get mentioned on a list of lady performers or get invited to play shows or have my opinion solicited. i already know i'm awesome.
<3jo
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o to m. sloan......Re: Part II: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman?
Posted by vinnie [User Info] on 8/24/2010, 5:13 am, in reply to " Part II: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman? "
Message modified by user vinnie 8/24/2010, 5:33 am
your posts were brilliant and powerful! you have enormous talent in writing and being able to focus and express things so clearly. it takes time and effort and care and guts and strength and integrity to put yourself out there despite the shit you get. some people recognize how well you see things and how brave you are. you asked in one post if you were just imagining these things and the answer is absolutely not. some folks just aren't going to be able to affirm what you see and know because they aren't capable. you probably know that.
i found this particular section of your posts very vital and something i'm going to remember and continue to consider:
"Fact: we live in a culture that is male-dominated and phallocentric. Women are denied the freedom to participate in society and self actualize, at the same levels that men enjoy, by means of violence, coercement, deprivation and extortion. All of the women on the list at the top of this post create what they do despite this. Any time a woman does anything primarily for herself and her personal values instead of primarily for the satisfaction of the demands and needs of to male society and other individuals, she is resisting something. To put it in common terms: Everytime a woman opens her mouth to say something true to her experience in this world she’s gotta take a dick out of her mouth first. Never take anything a woman says for granted and never forget the dick.
Do we, day-to-day members of the anti-folk community forget the dick? "
i think there are folks "forgetting the dick" and many who deny it's even there. it's there. it's definitely there. no matter what kind of tomfoolery is attempted to trick people into believing otherwise, it's there.
thanks for articulating things so well.
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+ It's crap
Posted by Brer [User Info] on 8/24/2010, 9:34 am, in reply to "to m. sloan......Re: Part II: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman? "
Message modified by user Brer 8/24/2010, 9:58 am
Vinnie did you spend any time at college? Have you never read this kind of writing before?
It's a junior-high level screed, aimed at some of the wussiest and most sensitive men on earth. Let us all ooh and ahh about how brave she must have been to post it.
Garcon mauvais. Qu'est ce que tu ferras? Qu'est ce que tu ferras quand ils viennent pour toi?
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# Re: It's crap
Posted by erin [User Info] on 8/24/2010, 10:34 am, in reply to "It's crap"
what a bully.
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* Re: It's crap
Posted by johnjohn [User Info] on 8/24/2010, 12:07 pm, in reply to "Re: It's crap"
What about believing a writing is pap, makes the believer of that a "bully?" Unlike Brer, I saw a lot of redeeming qualities in what Sloan wrote, while mostly disagreeing with it. But I'll ask again, what about Brer not seeing any redeeming qualities in it makes him a "Bully?" Having a different point of view, and expressing it, even expressing it strongly, even expressing it with a typically comedically-tinged "Brer" flourish, does not a bully make.
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* Well come on...
Posted by Brer [User Info] on 8/24/2010, 1:18 pm, in reply to "Re: It's crap"
I guess we can all thank Mary for inspiring some women to open up more, if they hadn't felt as free to do so before. I've never met her but i did like her guatemala stories.
With an admitted gender-bias the passage Vinnie quoted does nothing for me, it just seems sort of witless and not unlike countless similar screeds I've heard over the years.
Perhaps I'm too old.
Are there links to her songs anywhere?
Garcon mauvais. Qu'est ce que tu ferras? Qu'est ce que tu ferras quand ils viennent pour toi?
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o Here is a link to some of her beautiful art:
Posted by Sarah H [User Info] on 8/24/2010, 4:24 pm, in reply to "Well come on..."
http://www.flickr.com/photos/marybluestocking/
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+ Okay, now this is cool...
Posted by Brer [User Info] on 8/24/2010, 4:44 pm, in reply to "Here is a link to some of her beautiful art:"
The lady has something to back it up I see.
Garcon mauvais. Qu'est ce que tu ferras? Qu'est ce que tu ferras quand ils viennent pour toi?
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# Re: Okay, now this is cool...
Posted by M Sloan [User Info] on 8/26/2010, 9:59 pm, in reply to "Okay, now this is cool..."
doop! I found out my flikr page got alluded to here and wuz like, "crap! I haven't posted much of my stuff on that at all!"
so thanks, this put a fire under my ass (I myself struggle deeply with self-promotion) and I posted a bunch more of my art up there for anyone to see. Just did it in the last 24 hours so you missed it all, Brer. have a look again if you care to.
also, if you like my Guatemala stories you might enjoy checking out the blog I kept while there:
pelotalgodon@blogspot.com
i haven't posted to that since i left, but since this might bring out some extra lookers, i'm gonna try to post my report of the firtst ever Metallica concert in Guatemala, which i attended and never got to report to. As with all things Guatemala, it wasn't what I expected. (In case you haven't heard, Guatemala's nuts.) So check in this weekend to see if i managed to find the teargas footage and post it.
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* I've heard this before
Posted by Brer [User Info] on 8/20/2010, 8:03 pm, in reply to "Part I: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman? "
It's scripted, its rote, and it makes me feel I can safely ignore anything else you have to say. I never met anyone spouting off militant first-wave Valerie Solanas-style femenism who didn't end up being a seriously crappy person.
Garcon mauvais. Qu'est ce que tu ferras? Qu'est ce que tu ferras quand ils viennent pour toi?
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o in defense of M Sloan
Posted by Bee K [User Info] on 8/20/2010, 9:46 pm, in reply to "I've heard this before"
Message modified by user Bee K 8/20/2010, 9:46 pm
I definitely don't think she's a crappy person, Brer. She just goes off sometimes and does it with feeling, for better or for worse. You have totally been there in your own way. Be nice now. End of line.
BOOKING? LINGERING ISSUES RE: MY J NEWSOM POST? LOVE/HATE MAIL? IM ON OJ BOARD VACATION: I am easy to find and talk to! Sidewalk: Monday, Thurs, Sat night. Also PM or email ben AT sidewalkmusic.net
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+ Re: in defense of M Sloan
Posted by M Sloan [User Info] on 8/21/2010, 11:28 am, in reply to "in defense of M Sloan"
Message modified by user M Sloan 8/21/2010, 12:30 pm
thanks, Bee K, for defending me. You totally got it. I "just go off sometimes. with feeling."
I didn't know if I should respond to Brer's attack as he's stated he'll ignore anything i post from now on but just for the sake of "putting it out there"
calling me a shitty person and saying i must not ever have anything to say that'll ever be worth listening to is an incredibly mean thing to say.
And it totally hurt my feelings.
Which judging from the choice of words, was the intention.
But I'd a liked to ask Brer this: do you think I was intending to hurt anyones' feelings in my post? I'm aware that much if it was written in anger-- at the misoginyst dick postings and at everyone choosing to talk about Lady Gaga while almost noeone choosing to talk about the female musicians we know when the opportunity was presented to them, yadayadayada.-- That was anger that was being expressed. There was no intention to hurt anyone's feelings in that. Expressing anger doesnt have to mean intention to hurt. But Brer reacts with this seemingly intentionally hurtful, hateful message.
one insight i learned once from someone is that the emotion anger comes out of pain. I'd classify Brer saying i'm a shitty person as being expressive of anger towards me. Therefore, I see Brer was hurt by something in my posting. What hurts so much about hearing a lady get livid over dick jokes and state that she doesn't think her sisters are getting all the support they could be getting considering they're living in an unfair, disadvantageous condition that works against them making and sharing their art?
Really, what's so gross?
And how is that message anything like female separatism (Valerie Solanis)? I'm appealing to all the women and especially the men in the community for some more concientousness and support of the women.
I know. This must be a classic example of how somepeople shut down entirely when they hear someone expressing anger. They just switch over to defensive-attack.
I can understand that on a human level. But it's still pretty shitty, as a human myself, to be concious enough of the social injustice I'm subject to on a daily basis in my life to feel that pain from it, a lot, (then also anger at it a lot too), then get set off my some other peoples' insensitive behaviour regarding this sore spot of mine, then when I voice that anger in a strongly worded criticizm, then appeal for aid against all this bullshit, I then get rewarded for my "naivite" or "idealism" in bothering to post such an appeal with responses that are intended to hurt and demoralize me.
Well you've succeeded in doing that, Brer. Good for you. And where are all the ladies that could be posting to this? thanks for calling be brave, erin, but why wont you stick your neck out a bit too? I'm totally a lady alone with my neck stuck out right now. If someone cuts it off, they'll just be making an example of me. I know being in this position is my own doing, but that's what i do. I take risks and say what I shouldn't say even when i know for sure i'll get beat for it. Maybe it's just the power (ful stupidity) of being an idealist whos also a masochist. But it would be way cooler if anyone who ever had anything to say that's in support of my views speak up now. The hard part's already been done for you--I've broken the ice. I'm getting hit. Reinforcements?
I also wanted to clarify my intent here. I wanted to open up discussion of these things. that's why i put so many questions in my post. i'm sure many of them sounded rhetorical, eventually, they did became rhetorical. I was juggling my own strong feelings and formulated opinions with a sincere desire to find out what other people thought. That can confuse any readership.
Really my ultimate goal is to get people thinking about all this some more.
I'm also asking cause I know for a fact that I'm just one perspective--so that's skewed-- so as I realize the clouds closing in again as events and elements condense into the forms they always condense into for me: "this shit i totally sexist!", i decide i'd better now reach out and cross-check my subjective reality with that of others.
Basically this is an "am i just imagining this or is there really something goinng on here that could be corrected?"-question.
there are no wrong answers. just dishonest or superfical ones. Maybe i am imagining a lot. I'd sure love to know if that's the case. I value sanity.
so please don't project that you're arguing against M Sloan if you don't see it my way, as if i'm your enemy.
I'm just expressing my perspectiive honestly and sincerely and i'm inviting you to express yours. I want to hear yours.
I'm very sensitive to all the negative hate energy when it gets projected towards me, we can still all be on the same side even while diagreeing, can't we?
I think now's a great time to utilize any senistivity and concientiousness you do have regarding the social condition of women right now regarding what tones to respond to me in, cause, notice only two women have responded so far. One response was just a woman admiring how brave i'm being. Realize this is true. It really is intimidating to say strong words against patrairchy in public for fear everyone will hate you for it, act scared of you in person, you'll feel alienated from your beloved male society, and you'll be dismissed like some babbling idiot and compared to man-hating extremists.
Know that a lot of women are watching how this goes down on my head right now (so far we're on some pretty shaky ground), and don't doubt they're gauging how safe this environment really is for them to voice any of their own anger or sexism-concious views.
So creating a safe place for me to get angry and rant is simultaneously creating a safe place for all the female oj boarders. Note: defense against cruel attackers is a very important part of creating a safe place. So again, thanks Bee K for defending me. Also, thanks, Matt and Phoebe for showing your support.
Casey, I appreciate your appeals to the other women. I'd expect their prescence will come in a delay. The most effective thing you could be doing, in my opinion, is helping to create and defend a safe-placeness here.
But thanks, to those who've already shared their own views with us here in response. I appreciate this very much.
one last note: I apologize to Deenah if it insulted you to put you under the non-performing artists list. I think you're hilarious onstage. I loved Old Hat. I just without thinking put you under that list cause I totally think of you as a hardcore writer but not as a "lightcore" musician.
If that's not the case, then it's just cause i dont know anybetter.
And i didn't want to get all precious about it by making a third list of "in-between" artists that'd be stupid. Please let me know if you think that was insensitive.
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# For the record...
Posted by MMM [User Info] on 8/21/2010, 11:53 am, in reply to "Re: in defense of M Sloan"
Message modified by user MMM 8/21/2010, 1:05 pm
I've had what could be at this point dozens of very thoughtful and enlightening conversations with M. Sloan about all sorts of stuff. I'm glad she is sharing and I really wish more people wold post stuff here like this.
I just want to make one point. I don't think that people should be given a pass for the way they speak on this board. Just expecting people to forgive you for repeated insensitive behavior is total bull s h i t in my opinion. I think what Brer said, not surprising to me, but regardless was total bull s h i t as well.
Granted sometimes people get wound up, make mistakes or say mean things here. That's okay. Everyone does it. Just say, "I'm sorry." Admit you made a little mistake and try to be a bit more sensitive in the future. Being defensive, condescending, or sarcastic just makes it worse.
"Always make new mistakes." -Esther Dyson
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* Re: For the record...
Posted by Bee K [User Info] on 8/21/2010, 1:22 pm, in reply to "For the record..."
Message modified by user Bee K 8/21/2010, 1:34 pm
I don't think people should get a pass for how they speak on the board, but I think the key to a board like this working is not always how you say things initially, but whether or not your are ultimately anchored with sensitivity and maturity. This allow us to be a little flexible with our language and behavior, but also feel comfortable calling each other out and/or apologizing when necessary. I think if sarcasm is nipped in the bud before it leaves our fingers, the board would be a lot less interesting. MMM, you display an admirable amount of consistency in your own tone, but the moments that you let your guard down are some of the best. I'd rather take risks with my own posts and apologize if it comes to that rather than neuter my writing before I hit "Post." Barry, I wouldn't want you to change the way you post. Your initial comments and retorts are often fiery, but over the course of a thread, you display a stable about of temperament, understanding, and willingness to listen to others. I enjoy the whole package.
I don't want people to tone themselves down because they think I can't handle it. I'd rather work on my own patience and understanding in communicating with a wide variety of personalities.
Brer, I think it's important to be unapologetic with one's art. If you create something that could offend, it's important not to back down when it bothers others. Kind of like I stand behind every single song Crabs on Banjo tracked without apology. A community message board is a little different, however. There has to be a little bit of compromise and a lot of trust for this to work. This needs to be a safe place for people to be angered, understood, and forgiven.
BOOKING? LINGERING ISSUES RE: MY J NEWSOM POST? LOVE/HATE MAIL? IM ON OJ BOARD VACATION: I am easy to find and talk to! Sidewalk: Monday, Thurs, Sat night. Also PM or email ben AT sidewalkmusic.net
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o Friendly advice...
Posted by MMM [User Info] on 8/21/2010, 7:59 pm, in reply to "Re: For the record..."
Message modified by user MMM 8/21/2010, 8:00 pm
Dude. I really think it might be a good idea for you to take a little break from the board.
"Always make new mistakes." -Esther Dyson
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+ Thanks, Matt.
Posted by Bee K [User Info] on 8/22/2010, 8:33 am, in reply to "Friendly advice..."
Your response to my email regarding this advice was really cool and I'm glad we're in agreement. I'm looking forward to a break and will probably be back in action after Portland.
BOOKING? LINGERING ISSUES RE: MY J NEWSOM POST? LOVE/HATE MAIL? IM ON OJ BOARD VACATION: I am easy to find and talk to! Sidewalk: Monday, Thurs, Sat night. Also PM or email ben AT sidewalkmusic.net
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* sucking dick
Posted by ray [User Info] on 8/21/2010, 9:27 pm, in reply to "For the record..."
for the record, you CAN talk with a dick in your mouth... it's just really garbled and sexy.
The women at Sidewalk are, in my opinion, much more interesting and original than the men, and I would probably not be interested in the "scene" if it were a sausage party. Fools, Morgan, Cal, Amanda, Talya, Speaker... c'mon, it's like a lilith fair w/ good artists.
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o Re: sucking dick
Posted by squirrelhouse [User Info] on 8/23/2010, 12:42 am, in reply to "sucking dick"
speaker...lmao
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# Re: in defense of M Sloan
Posted by erin [User Info] on 8/22/2010, 10:56 am, in reply to "Re: in defense of M Sloan"
I'm sorry mary!
I do have a lot to say!
I am on a beach vacation with my family and only have an iPhone for posting..which makes it really annoying.
do not feel alone in this.
something to chew on until I can write more..
nothing makes me angrier or more disgusted with someone ( male or female, bust mostly male) who comes up to me after I play (which is an hour of serious neck stretching) and says, "wow, you're actually really great. I was surprised."
why?
because I'm a woman?
because I have a good face?
a big rack?
Is it assumed that by looking at me that I produce trite sludge?Honestly, it happens ALL THE TIME.
I don't think that I'm being overly sensitive or misunderstanding these people either. they are TRULY surprised that I'm actually talented because I'm an attractive
woman.
ok, not even sure that that's on topic or anything but it's all I can give right now.
love to you, sister!
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* Re: in defense of M Sloan
Posted by beats [User Info] on 8/22/2010, 12:18 pm, in reply to "Re: in defense of M Sloan"
Erin,
i liked your music when i heard it and i was surprised!
not because of your femininity or the big coat rack you and dan have, but because i'm a jaded fu k. i expect to dislike most things, especially music.
i'm writing this because i feel like when i heard you play a year or 2 ago for the first time i told you i 'really liked' your set and it might have seemed like i was surprised. i was, but genuinely, in a good way. i liked your lyrics a lot.
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o Re: in defense of M Sloan
Posted by erin [User Info] on 8/24/2010, 12:03 am, in reply to "Re: in defense of M Sloan"
aw, b I sorta remember this. i remeber feeling pleased that you liked the song & not grossed out.
I was thinking about what I wrote this morning and realized that to a certain degree I do the same thing.
so what now, huh?
there's a lot going on out there..too much for me.
I love this community, men & women alike.
I love that mary had this fantastic passion burst. regardless of wether or not you agree with all of it, that kind of energy is infectious.
Let's all do our best?
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# Re: in defense of M Sloan
Posted by casey [User Info] on 8/23/2010, 1:44 pm, in reply to "Re: in defense of M Sloan"
i think i do help to make a safe and welcoming creative environment for women. i record women's music, attend women's music events, and play women's music along with women. i have a pretty good track record with that. it's not perfect but it's pretty good.
i'm glad you wrote this previous post explaining that you didnt mean to be attacking people. i think a lot of what you said is valid but it was too vindictive-sounding for me to respond constructively at first. probably what i would have written initially would've been an unhelpful and emotion-fueled response (knee jerk misplaced defensiveness), so i thought it would be better to ask women to respond. i'm glad phoebe, erin, and sarah posted.
no hope! see? that's what gives me guts. big f/ucking shit! right now, man.
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+ Don't pander to this person
Posted by Brer [User Info] on 8/20/2010, 10:59 pm, in reply to "I've heard this before"
I do think the last "eat a dick" was misplaced, but that Ben is a gentle soul who could hardly be called a tool of the phallacracy by anyone who knows him. He's apologized, he's tried to remove his comment, but he's apparently become "Mr. Dick" to M Sloan and will never be permitted to atone for his transgression and will be raked over the coals at every turn.
In her last post, she used Ben's support of Lady Gaga as evidence of his chauvanistic nature, even though there were a couple of women who voiced their support for her as well. She is a ridiculous human being, and I will not be sharing my bread with her after the apocalypse.
Garcon mauvais. Qu'est ce que tu ferras? Qu'est ce que tu ferras quand ils viennent pour toi?
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# Re: Don't pander to this person
Posted by Bee K [User Info] on 8/21/2010, 8:05 am, in reply to "Don't pander to this person"
Message modified by user Bee K 8/21/2010, 8:06 am
No, she's aight. And trust me, the d-bomb isn't leaving my arsenal. Just a thread or two.
BOOKING? LINGERING ISSUES RE: MY J NEWSOM POST? LOVE/HATE MAIL? IM ON OJ BOARD VACATION: I am easy to find and talk to! Sidewalk: Monday, Thurs, Sat night. Also PM or email ben AT sidewalkmusic.net
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o Re: Part I: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman?
Posted by Bee K [User Info] on 8/20/2010, 9:12 pm, in reply to "Part I: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman? "
Message modified by user Bee K 8/20/2010, 9:39 pm
I think you should feel safe going off on this board and know that you can run into folks at, say, GBM like we did on Saturday, and not feel like you need to avoid anyone. It was nice seeing you Saturday! I don't take the parts of your post that mention me personally as you really don't know me. It seems like this is a huge area of concern for you and judging from posts like Phoebe's you should feel comfortable saying what you feel because people appreciate it. I think that in terms of the parts concerning me, you are misdirecting your energy. I simply don't think--aside from being a little more aware of the audience on this board--that there is much that I need to change in the way I treat my wife, my daughter, my friends, or my clients at Sidewalk. Maybe along the line, something will come up--after all, I'm a guy. These things happen. I am always welcome to hear constructive criticism (my wife gives it to me all the time). I think that men and women will always have a lot to learn from each other, but this particular scene has always struck me as healthy. There are Ladies Nights, there are Dark Dudes nights, and mostly there are nights where no one cares. I like the I Heart U nights when songwriters cover each other regardless of gender, only out of respect for each other's craft. I enjoy all of these nights, and like Phoebe seemed to suggest, at the very most the topic deserves some discussion, but I do not believe there is cause for alarm.
The only thing I would ask--and I know that a subject line like the Joanna Newsom one can be incredibly distracting--is that you, whenever possible, make an effort to show that you read anything else that I contributed to these threads. You mentioned that I post a lot, which is true, and I would love it if you responded to more of my ideas instead of latching on to a single inappropriate statement. I mean, I write a lot. The rest of my thoughts in a thread aren't going anywhere, and there is plenty of time for you to go back, take a deep breath, and read a bit more before posting something like you did this afternoon. That's all for me. See you out there! Ben
BOOKING? LINGERING ISSUES RE: MY J NEWSOM POST? LOVE/HATE MAIL? IM ON OJ BOARD VACATION: I am easy to find and talk to! Sidewalk: Monday, Thurs, Sat night. Also PM or email ben AT sidewalkmusic.net
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+ Re: Part I: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman?
Posted by Tone [User Info] on 8/20/2010, 11:23 pm, in reply to "Re: Part I: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman? "
This might be my favorite OJ board thread ever.
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# Re: Part I: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman?
Posted by erin [User Info] on 8/21/2010, 2:25 am, in reply to "Re: Part I: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman? "
brave brave brave.
bravo, girl.
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* Re: Part I: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman?
Posted by casey [User Info] on 8/21/2010, 10:45 am, in reply to "Re: Part I: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman? "
Erin could you post your thoughts on this a bit mire if you have time? Just really would like to hear the opinions of more women who are experienced in the community. Nan, Dina, Deenah, Yoko, Diane, if you have time to express an opinion on this that would be awesome.
no hope! see? that's what gives me guts. big f/ucking shit! right now, man.
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# Re: Part I: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman?
Posted by brook [User Info] on 8/21/2010, 3:06 am, in reply to "Re: Part I: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman? "
I would point out that the two acts who have truly transcended the antifolk scene (as in, their respective profiles rose to the point that they could not play Sidewalk anymore for fear of overcrowding) are Kimya Dawson and Regina Spektor. Nellie Mackaye as well, but I think her presence on the scene was merely cred-building.
I would also point out that Erin Regan and Diane Cluck are two of the only acts I see consistently draw an audience predominantly comprised of non-Sidewalk regulars (i.e., fans who come to Sidewalk specifically to see their favorite act and do not play music).
Nan is half of everyone's favorite band. Phoebe (at least from my perspective) shared the same 1/4 of the songwriting duties in Urban Barnyard as her male contemporaries. Morgan Heringer's voice makes me misty. I wish I could write songs with the same free spirit as Cal Folger Day and Julie Lamendola. Yoko sounds like the 90s. Julie Delano can play bass, and I can't. I could go on.
From where I sit (and granted, this is a skewed perspective, because I'm a man in a man's world), attention on the scene is as closely divided by gender as can be expected. The first Juicebox show, for example, featured women in all of the bands, one of which was all female (and Angela's art was represented as well, alongside Toby's and Preston's). Even Brian's Dark Dudes shows have included the likes of the Fools and Emily Einhorn in their lineups. For what it's worth, I was embarrassed that my birthday show this year didn't have any women in the lineup. It's something I consciously try to avoid, as I don't want to watch an endless line of dudes with guitars under any circumstances (no disrespect to those dudes, though. It was still a fun show).
I ran sound once for a Sidewalk event called Girls Rock the Night. It was embarrassing: pretty obviously orchestrated by a somewhat lecherous guy who wanted to leer at pretty girls. The rest of that night was a lot more fun: it was Wizard Rock (I think I'm the only one who likes those guys), and men and women performed alongside each other throughout the night. I can't think of any time I've been privy to a Ben (or Lach) booked "Ladies Night" at the club. I could be wrong.
As message boards go, there's always going to be some crass personalities. But that's all they are: personalities. It's a sort of character being made up by the poster. If, for example, Brer, acted in person the way he has been known to act on this board, it would be realistic to feel uncomfortable in his presence. Pardon me if I'm insensitive for suggesting you ignore a poster whose language offends or hurts you. It seems like the most reasonable path to me.
Though I did quit Crabs on Banjo largely because of Ben's proclivity for cock-talk on stage, so...
"Blood in my mouth, pain in my eyes, I have arrived."
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* Re: Part I: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman?
Posted by Bee K [User Info] on 8/21/2010, 9:00 am, in reply to "Re: Part I: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman? "
For the record, Brook, the Girls Rock the Night is put together by a woman. The nights definitely aren't my style, but I have to give her props: she mails a handwritten card to me after every event she puts on thanking the club for its hospitality. I'm a sucker for etiquette and always welcome her back, even of the Pitchfork crowd would pinch their nose..
BOOKING? LINGERING ISSUES RE: MY J NEWSOM POST? LOVE/HATE MAIL? IM ON OJ BOARD VACATION: I am easy to find and talk to! Sidewalk: Monday, Thurs, Sat night. Also PM or email ben AT sidewalkmusic.net
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o Re: Part I: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman?
Posted by johnjohn [User Info] on 8/21/2010, 3:10 am, in reply to "Part I: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman? "
Perhaps an either man or woman, woman or man, already has corrected this, but "Deenah Volmer (sic)" is not "non-performing." That Sloan does not recognize that she is not non-performing is proof, upon proof, of what women of the stage must endure.
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+ Re: Part I: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman?
Posted by johnjohn [User Info] on 8/21/2010, 3:56 am, in reply to "Re: Part I: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman? "
Message modified by user johnjohn 8/21/2010, 4:10 am
The notion that Lady Gaga is somehow inherently less valid/worthy as a female performer, or is not okay for a conversation to branch off into discussion of, because she isn't specifically "one of ours," rings of situations in which black men mainly, but also black women are referred to as "white," or as "not black," unless they behave in very specific ways that accommodate convenient definitions of such things as what it means to be "black truly," or particular to here, what it means to be a true female performer to be discussed, or to be worthy of discussion in Sloan's eyes. (A person need only be a female performer who another person wants to discuss, in order to be a female performer worthy of discussion, and shouldn't have to jump through any extra-societal "female performer hoops" in order to be deemed discussion-worthy in Sloan's or anyone else's eyes.) In my post on the other thread, the long one, a point I was trying to make is that performance-wise, there was a time when I once found Gaga to be indistinguishable from something I would see at Sidewalk Cafe. She was groping her way toward the art-schlock-pop thing that it would seem she has now ultimately settled upon, and she then, was something I found not too different from a frequent Sidewalk performer of yesteryear, named Karen Hancock, who would get up on stage any given Monday night at Sidewalk Cafe, with a bunch of musical noise toys, and would feel her way toward what she wanted to musically say. I saw in Gaga an equal level of "experimentality," even if more in regards to the overall "presentation" of her songs than in their content itself. On a largely irrelevant personal note, I'm a terrific fan of the music of Diane Cluck, and also a lukewarm fan of a few present-day Lady Gaga songs. For me, the decision to be appreciative of these things is always about songs (lyrics/melody/presentation/and of course the elusive musical je ne sais quoi), and is never for a moment about gender. On a side note (and I mean way, way side), is the fact that the music video for Gaga's song Pokerface features a pair of enormous Great Danes, the animal that Diane Cluck finds much inspiration in (i.e. can't we all just get along?). (Can't we agree on Great Danes?) Sloan's notion of a booker of a music venue, potentially formulating an evening of music based on anything other than song/performance quality, and Sloan's specific suggestion that such a person remind oneself constantly (or at all, even once) of the gender of who one is booking, strikes me as a preposterously sexist notion. I almost just now wrote "silly" notion, but stopped myself from doing so, using my awareness that Sloan might detect fault in much of society from the random selection of that word by me alone. Everyone should judge everyone else on merit, and not exist in a state of constantly trying to "even the score" so that everyone's "team" is represented equally. The notion that should prevail, is the notion of doing away with teams, doing away with "black vs. white," with "male vs. female." Almost everything Sloan is suggesting is a solidification of the team mentality, with the unintentional effect of likely perpetuating the gender-based animosity which she semi-accurately describes as existing, though with a pervasiveness she lends to it.
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# Re: Part I: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman?
Posted by speakerb [User Info] on 8/21/2010, 10:29 am, in reply to "Re: Part I: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman? "
"The opposite of war isn't peace, its creation!" - Jonathan Larson
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# While we're counting ... still but 3 responses from women?
Posted by Sarah H [User Info] on 8/22/2010, 8:50 pm, in reply to "Re: Part I: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman? "
I said thanks to Mary last night in advance of reading this thread after overhearing a real life conversation into which it carried over, and now thanks again.
While in general I tend not to think in terms of 'teams,' like you johnjohn, men and women are different, they have different hormones, different brain structures, different thought processes, and different experiences in our culture. To deny that is biologically inaccurate as well as, in my opinion, counterproductive. We are just not there yet, where we can say that our culture treats people fairly enough that we can ignore the issue. Women are still paid less than men in all but two fields http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2009/03/01/business/20090301_WageGap.... (postal service and special education). The factors at the heart of issue, including our own personal choices and expectations of ourselves, are still pervasive enough that we can't get away with ignoring them. I think the fact only two women other than Mary, compared to 14 men, have felt comfortable even addressing the issue in this by-and-large extremely liberal community is perfect evidence. Do I feel strongly about this? Yeah, clearly I do. Do I ever EVER talk about it? No.
I have to say that I believe in affirmative action; if an employer or admissions committee wants to give what would be my job or spot in fancy school to a hispanic guy from the Bronx, or a Native American woman so that other people in their communities can know that it's not an impossible goal, I think that's the right thing to do. I also have to say that having worked in some seriously male dominated professions (cooking and biochemistry), I've felt the need for some affirmative action myself. People that know me know that I'm a really girlie girl - skirts, lipstick, high heels, everything. While I worked in those fields I felt the need to constantly censor my self expression in order to be taken seriously, wearing a uniform of button downs or t-shirts and pants (not too tight), and trying never to speak about my personal life. It was pretty oppressive and I think a large part of the reason that I've mostly left both behind. Here, and while I was in art school in San Francisco, I feel I play a very different role, and it's one that I fit into pretty easily, but I feel like I have to play it nonetheless. I'm not saying this is anyone's responsibility but my own, but I've noticed that in mixed company my voice gets a few notes higher, and I swear a lot less, and even disagree a lot less, than when I'm hanging out with just girls. I think that means something. And I think I've seen a difference with other women in the scene too. In fact, I almost just edited out this part for fear of the kind of reprisal Mary got, but considering the topic I decided not to.
And I do think that there can be bias in booking because I've done it myself. For a brief but sweet time I got to book shows for St. Xavier's Juice Bar. I did 3 in all, with 9 performers total ... 2 of whom were women. In my defense I did try to recruit a few more who couldn't do it, but that's not a great record. And it might not be all cause-and-effect, but the one all male show we had, which earned the facebook comment "triple boytastic!" had at least triple the turnout. I booked all the artists because I LOVE their music, yes. But I also booked them so that they would draw a crowd that would support my business and allow me to continue to use that business to support my friends' art.
As a side-side note, I quit that job in the aftermath of a fight in which my boss, one of 3 male partners presiding over 3 female managers (me included), screamed that I needed to learn how to be "subservient" to him, or I would never get anywhere in life. That really happened.
Anyways, I don't think anyone here is a bad person. I've gotten more love and support from this community, in super fun times and in really bad times, than I have from any other group of friends in my past. It's really almost daily that I think about how grateful I am to have found a group of such kind and amazingly talented people. But that doesn't mean I there are no destructive undercurrents in our small culture, and it doesn't mean this is an unworthy subject.
Also, thanks Mary - so much - for mentioning me, Kate, and Deenah! It doesn't happen often, but every once in a while when I realize that almost all (or all?) of the non-musicians we know are women, it's hard not to feel like a groupie a la Almost Famous. On that note I'd like to shout out Regan Spurlock, crafter extraordinaire and organizer of a children's film festival (how cool is that?!)
Here's hoping that Liv gets to this soon, I can't wait to hear what she has to say!
Love,
Sarah
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* Re: While we're counting ... still but 3 responses from women?
Posted by johnjohn [User Info] on 8/23/2010, 12:14 am, in reply to "While we're counting ... still but 3 responses from women?"
Message modified by user johnjohn 8/23/2010, 12:20 am
I feel the opposite as you do, Sarah H, about affirmative action. Though I "pass for white," the reality is that I am more "minority" than I am "white." Specifically, I am both of those minorities you mentioned you would prefer your job spot, or shmancy school spot go to. When I was applying for those things, I purposefully checked the "white" box, or its equivalent "caucasian" box on my applications, because I felt confident that my doing so was as close as I would get to being treated like the largest number people, and therefore, in the midst of what I considered to be a terminally imperfect process, would be being treated as close as I could get to "equally"... of an idealistic equality. While I think it is born of an admirable spirit, that you would be willing to give up your spot to another in such instances, I believe that it is ultimately counterproductive, and that what you term as a not-based-in-reality "ignoring" of differences, I instead see, and term as, an admittedly-idealistic "transcending" (of differences). The Catch-22 about the "transcending," is the longer a society waits to mostly agree on/initiate something like it, the longer such a concept as ultimate equality (though working within inescapable biological differences) is going to seem "far-fetched" in eyes of that society, and "far-off," and as if the society is unready for it, when in reality it is not unready, but is as a whole too content, or not brave to try for it, and bears the cross of willingness to wallow in its differences. Politically, there is no quicker way to make rhetorical hay, to get applause, or to rally any group of people, matter not its size or demographic, than for one person to stand before that group, and announce to it "you are not being treated fairly, others receive better treatment than you, you deserve more than you are getting," and all you would have to do is watch that group of listening people liven up in implicit agreement, as is almost human nature when people are reached-out to/sympathized with in that way (whether the sympathy/outreach is merited or not). This sometimes cynical political ploy, other times truly believed-in social philosophy, even works on rooms filled with middle-aged white male millionaires.
What your boss said to you: I've never had anyone specifically use the word "subservient" in relation to how they think I should be vis-a-vis them, but like most lives led, mine has seen a long litany of people make similarly stifling and offensive "know your place"-type of statements to me, in one employment setting, in many educational settings, in unexpectable social settings even, and I have gotten that stuff from both genders, and maybe even from a third gender in between (in the particular case that I am remembering, I can honestly not be sure). If I were in your shoes, my first presumption would be to take your boss having said that to you as more of a power-trip problem that your boss has, before I would take it as a problem-with-women problem that your boss has. I mean, if your boss had preceded "subservient" with "listen here, girlie," or "listen here, little girlie," then that might be proof positive. Over the course of a lifetime, will the average woman, in employment settings, deal with more of this stuff than the average man? Probably, probably a little more. But is it so much more that every instance of it need necessarily be always presumed a man-on-woman meanness problem, and not a jerk-on-employee/jerk-on-perceived-underling problem? You'd probably have heard "subservient" a few times over by now, if you were in the employ of Anna Wintour.
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o DNFTT
Posted by MMM [User Info] on 8/23/2010, 1:31 am, in reply to "Re: While we're counting ... still but 3 responses from women?"
Message modified by user MMM 8/23/2010, 1:32 am
"Always make new mistakes." -Esther Dyson
Tue, 09/14/2010 - 12:15pm
#2
Lippe posted this cool story on the old board
A little story about privilege
Posted by LP on 9/7/2010, 3:53 pm
Found this link this week.
I like the story.
Don't like the title.
Relevant given the "anti-woman" thread.
Full post:
On the difference between Good Dogs and Dogs That Need a Newspaper Smack
Excerpt:
"Imagine, if you will, a small house, built someplace cool-ish but not cold, perhaps somewhere in Ohio, and inhabited by a dog and a lizard. The dog is a big dog, something shaggy and nordic, like a Husky or Lapphund – a sled dog, built for the snow. The lizard is small, a little gecko best adapted to living in a muggy rainforest somewhere. Neither have ever lived anywhere else, nor met any other creature; for the purposes of this exercise, this small house is the entirety of their universe.
The dog, much as you might expect, turns on the air conditioning. Really cranks it up, all the time – this dog was bred for hunting moose on the tundra, even the winter here in Ohio is a little warm for his taste. If he can get the house to fifty (that’s ten C, for all you weirdo metric users out there), he’s almost happy.
The gecko can’t do much to control the temperature – she’s got tiny little fingers, she can’t really work the thermostat or turn the dials on the A/C. Sometimes, when there’s an incandescent light nearby, she can curl up near it and pick up some heat that way, but for the most part, most of the time, she just has to live with what the dog chooses. This is, of course, much too cold for her – she’s a gecko. Not only does she have no fur, she’s cold-blooded! The temperature makes her sluggish and sick, and it permeates her entire universe. Maybe here and there she can find small spaces of warmth, but if she ever wants to actually do anything, to eat or watch TV or talk to the dog, she has to move through the cold house.
Now, remember, she’s never known anything else. This is just how the world is – cold and painful and unhealthy for her, even dangerous, and she copes as she knows how. But maybe some small part of her thinks, “hey, it shouldn’t be like this,” some tiny growing seed of rebellion that says who she is right next to a lamp is who she should be all the time. And she and the dog are partners, in a sense, right? They live in this house together, they affect each other, all they’ve got is each other. So one day, she sees the dog messing with the A/C again, and she says, “hey. Dog. Listen, it makes me really cold when you do that.”
The dog kind of looks at her, and shrugs, and keeps turning the dial.
This is not because the dog is a jerk.
This is because the dog has no ####ing clue what the lizard even just said.
Consider: he’s a nordic dog in a temperate climate. The word “cold” is completely meaningless to him. He’s never been cold in his entire life. He lives in an environment that is perfectly suited to him, completely aligned with his comfort level, a world he grew up with the tools to survive and control, built right in to the way he was born.
So the lizard tries to explain it to him. She says, “well, hey, how would you like it if I turned the temperature down on you?”
The dog goes, “uh… sounds good to me.”
What she really means, of course, is “how would you like it if I made you cold.” But she can’t make him cold. She doesn’t have the tools, or the power, their shared world is not built in a way that allows it – she simply is not physically capable of doing the same harm to him that he’s doing to her. She could make him feel pain, probably, I’m sure she could stab him with a toothpick or put something nasty in his food or something, but this specific form of pain, he will never, ever understand – it’s not something that can be inflicted on him, given the nature of the world they live in and the way it’s slanted in his favor in this instance. So he doesn’t get what she’s saying to him, and keeps hurting her.
Most privilege is like this.
A straight cisgendered male American, because of who he is and the culture he lives in, does not and cannot feel the stress, creepiness, and outright threat behind a catcall the way a woman can. His upbringing has given him fur and paws big enough to turn the dials and plopped him down in temperate Ohio. When she says “you don’t have to put up with being leered at,” what she means is, “you don’t ever have to be wary of sexual interest.” That’s male privilege. Not so much that something doesn’t happen to men, but that it will never carry the same weight, even if it does.
So what does this mean? And what are we asking you to do, when we say “check your privilege” or “your privilege is showing”?
Well, quite simply, we want you to understand when you have fur. And, by extension, when that means you should listen. See, the dog’s not an asshole just for turning down the temperature. As far as he knows, that’s fine, right? He genuinely cannot feel the pain it causes, he doesn’t even know about it. No one thinks he’s a bad person for totally accidentally doing harm.
Here’s where he becomes an asshole: the minute the gecko says, “look, you’re hurting me,” and he says, “what? No, I’m not. This ‘cold’ stuff doesn’t even exist, I should know, I’ve never felt it. You’re imagining it. It’s not there. It’s fine because of fur, because of paws, because look, you can curl up around this lamp, because sometimes my water dish is too tepid and I just shut up and cope, obviously temperature isn’t this big deal you make it, and you’ve never had to deal with mange anyway, my life is just as hard.”
And then the dog just ignores it. Because he can. That’s the privilege that comes with having fur, with being a dog in Ohio. He doesn’t have to think about it. He doesn’t have to live daily with the cold. He has no idea what he’s talking about, and he will never, ever be forced to learn. He can keep making the lizard miserable until the day they both die, and he will never suffer for it beyond the mild annoyance of her complaining. And she, meanwhile, gets to try not to freeze to death.
So, quite simply: don’t be that dog. If you’re straight and a queer person says “do not title your book ‘Beautiful Cocksucker,’ that’s stupid and offensive,” listen and believe him. If you’re white and a black person says “really, now, we’re all getting a little tired of that What These People Need Is A Honky trope, please write a better movie,” listen and believe her. If you’re male and a woman says “this maquette is a perfect example of why women don’t read comics,” listen and believe her. Maybe you don’t see anything wrong with it, maybe you think it’s oh-so-perfect to your artistic vision, maybe it seems like an oversensitive big deal over nothing to you. WELL OF COURSE IT DOES, YOU HAVE FUR. Nevertheless, just because you personally can’t feel that hurt, doesn’t mean it’s not real. All it means is you have privilege.
That’s not a bad thing. You can’t help being born with fur. Every single one of us has some kind of privilege over somebody. What matters is whether we’re aware of it, and what we choose to do with it, and that we not use it to dismiss the valid and real concerns of the people who don’t share our particular brand."
Tue, 09/14/2010 - 6:23pm
#3
Here's my two cents
It's an interesting story. I guess the one thing I don't like about it is that it posits gender relations as a zero sum game. In order for the gecko to become more comfortable, the dog must become less comfortable. In my opinion, I think everyone has something to gain by improved gender parity.
It also posits women as ultimately both helpless in the fight for gender equality and blameless for their own subjegation; when I think we can all point to women that to women who do a great deal to improve the lot of women as well as women that set women back.
However, I think the larger point that men probably can't truly grasp what it's like to be a woman is valid. Now, the issue for me, personally, is, that being the case, I'm never sure what the right course of action is. For example, as I think was mentioned somewhere above, the pluses and minuses of setting up a night solely for female musicians. Would something like that be an event that increases the acceptance of female musicians? Or would it further marginalize them by drawing attention to the fact that being female is extra-ordinary (because no one bats an eye at an all dude night)? Should I be more supportive of a female artist because of her increased adversity she faces? Or is that condescending? Should they just be treated equally and judged solely on the merits of the work? Would that be when the playing field isn't equal?
I honestly don't know the answer to any of these questions. So I often look to women for their example. I figure, they're at least in a better place to judge what the right thing to do is in these matters, as I said above. But then, there's no consensus. There are so many schools of thought in the feminist community that are often at odds, and as a dude, I always feel like all I can do is guess. I end up giving the wrong answer to one of these very complicated questions, and all of a sudden, I'm no longer part of the solution, I'm part of the problem again. And that's frustrating. Not so frustrating that I want to wash my hands of the whole matter. But frustrating.
I guess it's not as easy as just cranking up a thermostat is my point. Which I guess is part of the point of the story, but I think it's even more complicated than that.
o Re: Part I: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman?
Posted by beats [User Info] on 8/21/2010, 1:16 pm, in reply to "Part I: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman? "
With all due respect...sucking dick IS an artform.
Men are probably better at it than women.
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+ Reply
Posted by Barry Bliss [User Info] on 8/21/2010, 2:07 pm, in reply to "Re: Part I: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman? "
Message modified by user Barry Bliss 8/21/2010, 5:17 pm
I have never noticed much sexism in the core of the "antifolk community"--not in the chief contributors who have been around for a while.
Take Adam and Kimya. Who was in charge? Both, or one then the other then one then the other.
Perhaps M. Sloan is very sensitive regarding this issue and is able to see sexism on a subtle level that I have not been aware of.
I started that thread about cool women because I had read an article about uncool women.
10 or 11 years ago I had a conversation with Randi Russo where she said she liked the lack of predjuice/sexism.
I was married to a female who performed in the scene and I never heard much from her about problems in that area. (I do not/cannot speak for her though.)
I like M. Sloan.
Like I said, perhaps this is a specialty/strong area of hers so she is bringing out whatever sexism is there, though it may be minor compared to American society as a whole.
Erin and Daniel.
Who do I see as the stronger, the more assertive, the more in charge?
Neither.
I am a good friend of Brer's and not entirely opposed to his crap stirring/court jester antics on the whole.
He's definitley said some crappy stuff, as have I.
I don't know if any consistent poster here has a clean mistake free record.
Honestly, what I am seeing is a lot of people filling in holes in areas where they specialize.
There is a difference between treating women equally because you honestly see them that way and making yourself do it externally when you don't really believe it's true.
If you don't believe it's true, don't pretend.
I am pretty sure we are all aware of the fact that some women choose to take on a submissive role. These women usually find men (or other women) that have chosen to be a dominant figure.
These folks usually find each other and if it's a consensual (maybe I spelled it wrong but I like it) arrangement then no harm done.
I have never been able to consistently be one or the other, and I have not seen MMM, Nan, Randi, Toby, or any other people I am close to always be one way.
I find at Sidewalk Cafe that there are a lot of folks that are sometimes dominant, sometimes submissive, and this could happen 10 times a minute.
As far as physical numbers of men and women I don't know. are there more women or men performing in a given month at Sidewalk. If it's not equal then why?
Less women performing per 1,000 women?
More?
Don't know.
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# Re: Part I: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman?
Posted by Bee K [User Info] on 8/21/2010, 2:29 pm, in reply to "Reply"
Message modified by user Bee K 8/21/2010, 2:32 pm
When I am sending out initial invites for folks to perform in the AF fest, I am careful to try and invite a variety of folks and a gender balance is considered. For the most part, once the RSVPs come in and artists are slotted, I stop keeping track. If a woman is scheduled to perform and then backs out, for example, I'll fill the slot with anyone who fits the bill. It's too much stress to consider much more than that after the initial invites and initial slot placements. I'd lose my mind.
In booking the club as a whole, I have never bothered to count. There seems to be a healthy balance in both the shows I put together and the gender of people asking me for shows. I think because I focus on the art and the business, gender bias is not a significant variable in how the calendar ends up.
I checked the next several weeks out of curiosity:
roughly...
Male Acts: 27
Mixed Acts: 7
Female Acts: 23
BOOKING? LINGERING ISSUES RE: MY J NEWSOM POST? LOVE/HATE MAIL? IM ON OJ BOARD VACATION: I am easy to find and talk to! Sidewalk: Monday, Thurs, Sat night. Also PM or email ben AT sidewalkmusic.net
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o Our dicks are too small.
Posted by Brer [User Info] on 8/22/2010, 8:46 pm, in reply to "Part I: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman? "
Periodically this issue is raised- Does our scene support its women. Do we love them enough. And the answer is- No. We can't. And the blame can be laid squarely at the feet of our tiny, tiny dicks.
Sensitive singer/songwriter types don't have it going on where it counts. And thus can't deliver what is needed. You're better off spending time at a sports bar, or better yet with our returning servicemen from Iraq and Afghanistan.
(With a special nod to John S. Hall, from whom part of this rant is borrowed)
Garcon mauvais. Qu'est ce que tu ferras? Qu'est ce que tu ferras quand ils viennent pour toi?
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+ Re: Our dicks are too small.
Posted by ray [User Info] on 8/22/2010, 10:11 pm, in reply to "Our dicks are too small."
Math Problems....
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# Does Anyone Remember Fredo?
Posted by Jeannie [User Info] on 8/22/2010, 10:54 pm, in reply to "Re: Our dicks are too small."
Yes, Fredo IS me, no one else!
Lach, then Ben allowed me to book a few Fredo Presents nights if anyone remembers. The main reason I wanted to do such nights of incredible music was because I saw that men played most of the shows at the Sidewalk. Not because they were better musicians or drew larger crowds, but because there are a heck of a lot more males on the scene than women. The males also tended to play a lot harder than the women, but thats also not to say that they were any better. The women just seemed to me to get lost in the shuffle.
There are so many incredible women on the scene, I don't have to repeat who they are as you all know them.
I think the women have come forward more & more on the scene of late, and other scenes too. Seems most of the music on the radio of late have been female acts.
Card Carrying Member of The Sisterhood of the Traveling Cardboard Box of Sorrows
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* I knew it was you, Fredo.
Posted by Brer [User Info] on 8/23/2010, 5:01 pm, in reply to "Does Anyone Remember Fredo?"
You broka my heart
Garcon mauvais. Qu'est ce que tu ferras? Qu'est ce que tu ferras quand ils viennent pour toi?
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+ women on the scene
Posted by squirrelhouse [User Info] on 8/23/2010, 3:18 am, in reply to "Our dicks are too small."
Message modified by user squirrelhouse 8/23/2010, 3:32 am
i'll chime in with an explanation of why i put together the Venus Flytrap night. it was mostly because i'm a big fan of female energy and wanted to see what would happen if it was gathered together. i don't have a desire to gather male energy, as fond as i am of you guys. i also wanted to do something to highlight women songwriters because i've noticed, off and on over the years, that they tend to get lost in the shuffle among the guys (as has already been pointed out), there have been periods when women seemed a real minority on the scene.
i don't look at songwriting according to gender, but there's definitely something that females bring to the table that men don't, whatever that thing may be, and i wanted to do something to make it more visible.
in the last year i know of the venus flytrap, debe dalton's ladies' night, and cal folger day has booked at least four Ladies' Nights at goodbye blue monday. i plan on doing a Venus Flytrap Festival II in the next year, and maybe it would also be fun to put together an all-men's night, just to be fair.
when i did the Flytrap the majority of artists were very into it. they were excited about the female energy (yes, i know, whatever that means...maybe different things to different people). a few were uncertain, but curious, about what it was all about. only two women i invited flat out said they had no interest in being part of something limited to their gender. i received many comments from participants on how it was a good idea that women on the scene would be more heard.
what ben said about the ratio of male to female at sidewalk, a slightly lopsided 50/50, is how i've found it to be on average, and there were a number of occasions that i did some adding up. over the years it started to look like there was an average of two thirds guys to a third gals on the scene. why that is i don't know, there were simply always less women showing up, starting out, or sticking around. i'm going to estimate that at the last festival it was about half guys, a quarter male/female acts, and a quarter female.
a bunch of artists have already been mentioned. but monday nights also reveal a lot more women artists than are known on this board. currently Morgan Heringer and Cal Folger Day (already mentioned by Brook), Julian Lopez, Amanda Schmidt, Elana Brody, Rebecca Satelite, and Anna Haas, not to mention Supercute (Rachel, Julia, and June, who are about to tour europe), have been bright lights and making the rounds. Ben could mention a bunch more.
Domino has gone electric. Jordan Levinson is back on the scene. Emily Einhorn, Liv Carrow, Debe Dalton have visited this summer. we lost Julie Hill and Jess Clinton, but we're going to get Julie back. Larkin Grimm is out touring with Rasputina. out of the seven finalists at lach's Anti-Idol competition, four were female. veterans Randi Russo, who just finished her new album, Linda Draper, Dina Rudean, and Jesse Murphy have all been around. representing the forgotten borough, Phoebe Blue has just finished her new album and is going to visit the sidewalk open stage tonight. Maya Caballero has been touring and finishing her album all summer, Elizabeth Devlin is on tour right now, Sarah Turk (Bird to Prey) just did a mini-tour.
so i don't see a shortage of visible, working women performers here, on the contrary i think they've been in the lead.
booking a night, or a festival like Huggabroomstock, as neil basically said means choosing quality artists and getting available ones, you don't make it by thinking in terms of boy-girl-boy-girl, or by trying to please everyone.
sometimes it's not possible to book the women you want, even for a show that's supposed to be goddess-centric: my last event was Liberty Enlightens the World, and out of thirteen readers there were only two women! that's backwards, but it just turned out that way. the previous show of 12 readers had 8 guys and 4 girls. unless there's a specific reason to stack the deck, most of the time a cigar is just a cigar.
i think it's just true that going by the numbers there are less women here. in music, when there's too little female energy i miss it, and when there's too little male energy i miss that too. personally i view the scene in terms of a balance. if you're good people will want to hear you and come out and support, i think that's the bottom line and that gender is a non-issue.
equal time for two of the most exciting male artists on the scene right now? Richard Ringer and Adam Bricks.
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# Re: women on the scene
Posted by MMM [User Info] on 8/23/2010, 9:50 am, in reply to "women on the scene"
Well Said! Jolly good!
"Always make new mistakes." -Esther Dyson
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# Re: women on the scene
Posted by Brer [User Info] on 8/23/2010, 1:36 pm, in reply to "women on the scene"
Female empowerment's great, all these artists are great... I still think that someone's projecting violence and rape where none exists to draw attention to herself, and that you (Matt) are playing along because you feel like it gives you an edge. Que sera
Garcon mauvais. Qu'est ce que tu ferras? Qu'est ce que tu ferras quand ils viennent pour toi?
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* Re: women on the scene
Posted by MMM [User Info] on 8/23/2010, 2:47 pm, in reply to "Re: women on the scene"
First off I don't remember seeing anyone mention violence and rape. Maybe I'm wrong but I just thought this was about general sexism and women feeling welcome.
You know that's really funny because I feel like you use similar tactics to call attention to yourself and look "edgy" but sort of on the opposite end of the spectrum. Even though you're actually kind of a shy quite polite guy in public.
Here's the deal. After living with and being in a band with a strong artistic woman for 11+ years I feel like I've got a bit of insight into this subject matter. It's a simple matter of sensitivity and respect. It's not really a guy/girl thing I just find that "in general" girls are are more connected to their feelings. And that's tough to deal with for guys because we kind of grew up not being allowed to have our feeling so when we finally do have our feelings we end up doing f'ed up shit like blowing things up or harassing perfect strangers. If we could just figure out how to express them without having to be hostile, more like how women do mostly, then the world would be a much better place in my opinion.
Here's a good exercise. The next time you feel something and you want to express yourself verbal in an important conversation try keeping it to single words like: mad, or sad, or hurt because... Most real feeling can be expressed with one word. You start getting into thoughts like "I wanna punch someone in the face." Then you just start opening up a whole can of worms with people. (as seen on the other post). I'm not saying you have to do this in your art. That's why art is so great you get to make up your own rules. But when you deal with people and feelings I think there needs to be some rules otherwise were all just yelling at each other and assuming stuff that probably isn't even real.
Anyway, Brer, I have noticed that you've been relatively more sensitive lately here and I appreciate it.
"Always make new mistakes." -Esther Dyson
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o Re: women on the scene
Posted by casey [User Info] on 8/23/2010, 3:39 pm, in reply to "Re: women on the scene"
rock on, matt. i'm glad you spoke up about your own experience because i feel you set a really good example as far as this topic of conversation goes.
no hope! see? that's what gives me guts. big f/ucking shit! right now, man.
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o Re: Part I: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman?
Posted by danf [User Info] on 8/23/2010, 2:49 pm, in reply to "Part I: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman? "
Holy ####ing Shit.
I don't check this board as regularly as I used to, but I am really shocked and excited by this conversation.
In brief, I'd just like to support the main gist of Mary's statement, which is that it's not enough to passively accept the voices of women (or any besieged minority). It's not even enough to actively encourage those voices. Rather, you have to question what you may or may not be doing to inadvertently squelch those voices.
I think a lot of men in this community would be really surprised by how often their behavior or speech (or even, perhaps mostly, their songwriting) inadvertently creates an atmosphere that makes women think they "can't speak up."
Look how many of the women's responses on this thread have been about how they felt like they "couldn't talk about this."
We all have to take responsibility for that atmosphere. Whether you think you're a good person or not.
Peace,
One of the only remaining queer people in this scene! They keep leaving town!
.
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+ Re: Part I: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman?
Posted by Herb [User Info] on 8/23/2010, 3:44 pm, in reply to "Re: Part I: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman? "
This whole thread has gotten too bizarre. I'm taken aback at the unveiled animosity among people on this board that is emerging here. It's really perplexing to see how people can feel comfortable on an open board suggesting even flippantly that someone eat a dick or telling someone she's a ridiculous human being (just two examples of the many weird, angry quotes in this thread-and the previous one). What is going on? Am I taking this too seriously or something? I don't agree with lots of the positions that have been put up here, but everyone has the right to say what they think. If I object, I would hope to do it in a way that isn't mean or personal. I always thought the scene around here was characterized more by mutual support, collaboration, acceptance, all that stuff, but I'm beginning to wonder.
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# Re: Part I: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman?
Posted by squirrelhouse [User Info] on 8/23/2010, 5:04 pm, in reply to "Re: Part I: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman? "
Message modified by user squirrelhouse 8/23/2010, 5:10 pm
the projecting of violence and rape brer is referring to is sloan’s statements,
‘Dick Posters’ use of the dick or phallus as the instrument of gagging and dismissing the women he disagrees with is particularly violent as it’s humiliating her with what is historically the main instrument of violence towards women,’
‘dick’s have been used as weapons with which to physically violate an subjugate women for all of memorable history.’
‘Everytime a woman opens her mouth to say something true to her experience in this world she’s gotta take a dick out of her mouth first. Never take anything a woman says for granted and never forget the dick.
‘lack of support and even abuse of women in the antifolk scene,’ ‘they’ve woken up to a big fat “#### you”, “not interested” “we’d prefer if you sucked a dick” from the world everyday of their lives?!’, ‘Have we been saying “#### you”, “not interested” “we’d rather you sucked a dick” to them ourselves?’
I’ve never seen indication that the scene has said these things. on the contrary the reason female artists are on the scene at all is because they can be there as equals. sloan’s listing of artists along with her statement, ‘they’ve woken up to a big fat #### you’ gives the impression that this is something generally understood.
have I ever heard a woman on the scene express anything like, ‘this scene is telling me it would rather I go suck a dick cause I’m a woman’? certainly not. are there actual instances of women receiving this kind of attitude, or of them receiving ‘even abuse’ on the scene? maybe there are examples of an attitude from individual to individual, but does that reflect on the whole scene and how it works? of course you can find misogyny in culture, but I agree with brer that mary comes across as projecting it onto a scene that's very egalitarian and respectful. as a matter of fact it's always reminded me of how kids, boys and girls, can play together with no barriers before gender roles have kicked in or been learned.
i'm a guy, but I spend at least half my time and probably more interacting with women on the scene and have never heard anything like this. you will stand and fall not because of any bias but because of how good you are, how well liked you are, and whether there's even anyone around to make it to your show. after culling twelve inspiring female artists for a night, it was all positive, and I didn’t hear anything expressed the likes of which mary is talking about.
if anything, some of the artists seemed more liberated in their expression, and given to expressions of solidarity, in having a kind of floodgate opened, of music by and for their gender or speaking for their gender, if you will. the same thing would have happened at an all-male night: guys would express a feeling of, ‘thank goodness we can just be guys tonight, and maybe express some things that are specific to us as guys, without being limited by female energy for once.’ I think that’s a natural reaction, and the same reaction naturally occurred during the Flytrap night.
so I think the circles we travel in are very female-positive, if they weren’t I wouldn’t be around half the time that I am. in music is there sometimes a built-in bias, a boy’s club attitude that favors male musicians and bands and tends to elbow women, who are less in numbers and maybe less assertive, to the side? I think there is. but that’s a far cry from women on the scene being told ‘we’re not interested.’
and as I said in the previous post, if anyone is elbowing others out of the limelight right now it’s the females elbowing the males. more of the ‘real artists’ who are active, successful, touring, visible on the scene right now are women.
Mary wrote: Dick-as-weapon is comparable to other symbols of hate weapons like lynching posts or burning crosses for African Americans or Swastika’s to Jews. If this poster was carrying on like this to a similar intensity towards black people, or jewish people, with a poster horsing around with lynching trees and swastikas like it’s play guns and all’s fair in love and war, would this be tolerated just the same? What ideas does the fact that all this has transpired the way it has reinforce? What messages does this put out?
Is this not abuse? Do all the women in this scene have to suck Bee K’s dick in order to participate in community forum?
no, it’s not abuse. because telling someone they can go eat a dick isn’t directed at women. it’s an expression that can be directed at anybody. and using an expression like that the way Bee K did doesn’t imply anyone has to suck his dick to be a part of the community, either, or that he would want them to. that’s a ridiculous intrusion on his ability to express disdain for Joanna newsome’s opinion.
dick-as-weapon is not comparable to cross-burning or swastikas. those are specific symbols of hatred expressed by one group towards another. just because dicks have been used as weapons doesn’t mean a dick is a symbol of hatred.
‘eat a dick’ is a misogynistic term if the person intends it to be. I’m certain that if ben had been referring to a male artist instead of ms. newsome, he would have been just as likely to have used the expression. there’s a difference between oppressive speech and disdain speech. when you conflate the two you destroy discourse. are there deep threads of misogyny and violence in society? of course. does an expression like ‘go eat a dick’ represent them? no. you, mary, are just as welcome and free to tell ben to go eat a dick, and it would mean exactly the same thing. politicizing the vernacular is a censorious burden on speech.
board rules state, if I remember correctly, that threats of physical violence or assuming someone else’s identity will get you kicked off. it doesn’t say that using an expression that someone might not like, or expressing negative opinions, aren’t allowed. that would go against free discourse. people also forget that in upholding free speech you’re upholding the right to express things you don't like. free speech doesn’t mean, as some people would like it to, that you have a right to not be offended. enjoying freedom of speech means respecting the rights of others to express hatreds and ideas and feelings that offend you.
would it be a good idea for schools, for instance, to teach that expressions like ‘go eat a dick’ are disrespectful and contribute to a culture of insensitivity and violence? sure it would. but it’s also a legitimate and benign slang expression, and it certainly would continue to be. in free discourse among artists and intellectuals expressions like this aren’t contributing to society’s ills, they simply represent the personal styles of other artists who we by and large know and understand.
I’ll have to deal with the second half of mary’s statements in another post. but I’d like to suggest a new expression, ‘go eat a cunt’ as a possible remedy.
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* Re: Part I: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman?
Posted by Herb [User Info] on 8/23/2010, 5:14 pm, in reply to "Re: Part I: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman? "
People can say what they want, and shouldn't be banned from expressing themselves. I'm just really surprised at what they want to say. I probably wouldn't have piped in if there were only a few examples in this thread, but a whole lot of it is rife with anger, venom and disrespect. It goes way beyond the issues that Mary was writing about and in some cases comes from people I consider friends or otherwise admire. Very weird.
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* Re: Part I: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman?
Posted by danf [User Info] on 8/23/2010, 5:18 pm, in reply to "Re: Part I: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman? "
I cannot believe you can't see how the expression "eat a dick" has misogynist undertones.
Like: think about for more than half a second.
This whole conversation reminds me of that male spoken interlude in the Le Tigre song "Gone B4 Yr Home":
"Listen babe, I know I make about twice the money you make. And I'm never called a whore or a fake. And I don't have to structure my life around fear of murder, dismemberment, or rape. But I hardly see what that has to do with OUR relationship."
The fact is that multiple women in this thread have said that they "don't feel comfortable" mentioning sexism in this community, and we all have to own that. It's not a time to be defensive. It's a time to get better.
.
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o Re: Part I: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman?
Posted by Phoebeee [User Info] on 8/23/2010, 6:17 pm, in reply to "Re: Part I: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman? "
I don't expect anyone to come to a show of mine because I'm a gal. And if I took lack-of-attendance at shows as an invitation to eat a bag of dicks, I would always be eating bags of dicks.
There are lots of reasons why this is hard to talk about. Sometimes it's because people feel intimidated. But I often avoid conversations about gender because of how intense they get and somehow I usually end up being the one who's called sexist. (I mean, I know the feeling involved are intense, so it's not a bad thing that the conversations get serious, but you know me. I like to have the ha has.)
Still, "Any tool is a weapon if you hold it right", says Miss Difranco. That probably included wangs.
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+ Re: Part I: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman?
Posted by deenah [User Info] on 8/24/2010, 3:01 pm, in reply to "Re: Part I: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman? "
Message modified by user deenah 8/25/2010, 10:13 am
I completely agree with Phoebe and it's partially why I haven't chimed into this thread, though I am very appreciative that it's happening. I have enjoyed the thoughts of Mary, Nan, Yoko, Dan, and Sarah especially. Haven't read every post tho.
When I first moved to New York I did call this music scene a boy's club. I initially felt that the boys were nice (maybe there were other motivations there) and the girls wanted to bite my head off. That was my initial impression, but it turned out that it just took me a little longer to have close friendships with the girls and looking back it seems silly that I felt that way since these friendships are some of the most important to me now. It was 5 years ago, I was 19, and I think things have changed a lot in that time. Or maybe things haven't changed and I'm just older. Also possible!
I've never felt like a serious musician or even a musician at all--I know a lot of you might say the same thing, but I disagree, I'm different! I ended up onstage due to the most awesome kind of peer pressure with particular thanks to Dibs, Toby, Dashan, and Luke for asking me to play/perform/record with them and I felt undeserving at the time and I still do, but I think it's great that this scene is so encouraging (at least to my face, at least on non-roast nights) of musicians so obviously lacking talent and the ability to sing on key! (Things that are usually requisite for musical projects and extra special thanks to Angela for asking me to SING with her!!!!) But I do think I'm pretty good at writing lyrics and playing the tambourine around my neck. Also at being in Old Hat, and now the Ladies of Old Hat and Kung Fu Crime Wave OF COURSE. So I do consider myself a performer, no offense taken, Mary.
And I have some new songs you can hear at sidewalk September 22. In response to Yoko, I've booked very few shows and it's true that I sometimes think of dudes before gals, but I think that's simply because there are more of them. Before this thread even began I was in the middle of booking a Virgo show at Sidewalk (9/22) that happens to have an almost all-lady, almost all virgo bill, which now happily includes Prewar Yardsale.
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o Re: Part I: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman?
Posted by squirrelhouse [User Info] on 8/23/2010, 6:27 pm, in reply to "Re: Part I: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman? "
Message modified by user squirrelhouse 8/23/2010, 7:08 pm
'I cannot believe you can't see how the expression "eat a dick" has misogynist undertones.'
i thought i'd clearly explained my point, but maybe not. an expression has an undertone if there's an undertone coming from the speaker. otherwise the so-called undertone is only in the interpretation, or imagination, of the hearer. it would be different if Bee K was a member of a women-hater's club and he used the expression, you might safely say there was an undertone. but the meaning of speech lies in how it's intended, not in how it's interpreted. if Bee K would like to explain any undertones that exist in his use of it, i'm sure he could. but undertones imagined because of how an expression makes someone feel, or what it reminds them of, or what they relate it to, are virtual ones. an expression can have a dozen different meanings or undertones depending on its intent and content. so i agree with what Phoebe posted,
"Any tool is a weapon if you hold it right", says Miss Difranco. That probably included wangs.
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+ Re: Part I: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman?
Posted by danf [User Info] on 8/23/2010, 8:15 pm, in reply to "Re: Part I: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman? "
Squirrelhouse, I'd really like to know who you are when I'm talking to you. If, as you say, "the meaning of speech lies in how it's intended," then I would need to know everything about you and your intentions in order to understand what you say.
It's a daring linguistic philosophy for someone with an alias.
And it's a cop-out for someone to say "I didn't mean it that way" when they make statements that could potentially make people feel unsafe or disrespected. We should all take responsibility for what we say, regardless of how we mean to say it.
It's not that hard to be respectful.
.
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* Re: Part I: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman?
Posted by vinnie [User Info] on 8/24/2010, 12:08 am, in reply to "Re: Part I: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman? "
Message modified by user vinnie 8/24/2010, 5:45 am
the thing about bee k on joanna newsome wasn't just that he used the word dick, as he apologized for. he said she should eat a dick and "that she should just stick to the music and shut up."
would he say that to MMM or Bliss or anyone else on this board when they express their opinion about an artist as she did?
what makes him so comfortable saying that to/about her? that she's not here? that she's female?
p.s. it was mentioned that people were pandering to m. sloan. how many folks have pandered to bee k because he holds a position of power in the community. sometimes people are afraid of speaking up if they fear they will lose something, real or imagined.
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o Re: Part I: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman?
Posted by speakerb [User Info] on 8/24/2010, 12:46 am, in reply to "Re: Part I: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman? "
ben krieger is my friend. he is sometimes spontaneous and ridiculous, with an intention to get a reaction out of someone. you. he does not go out of his way to hurt people or to use his "position of power" for harm. he is a booker of a small nyc club and he makes very little money compared to how much time and effort goes into his job, especially the festival shows. he books all of you for shows, if not yet, then ask him and he will likely take an honest listen to your art and consider it. a lot has been said toward, for, against and about him. he has taken these events very seriously and has apologized sincerely. matt has asked him to take a back seat for a while from this board. like a time out i guess, and so he has stepped back. he lives and breathes music and especially the folks who are involved here on this site, male and female. i think if you want to keep on taking him down a notch, it only goes to serve yourself. he's no dummy. he gets it. so lighten up. he ####ed up and probably will again. we all do.
if you, as an artist, male or female, gay or straight, want to shine, then go forth and prosper. no one is holding you back. you are in charge of your own destiny. not anybody else, EVER! if you are good, you will be good, if you are bitter, you will be bitter and if you are looking for a road block, you will find it.
respect is a hard thing to manage. if you want respect, then ask for it. no one is going to go out of their way to respect you. you have to tell people and teach them how to respect you with boundaries and limitations. that is what mary did with her posts. respect.
p.s. the media often takes something a politician says and twists it into something far greater then it was meant for. the purpose? to keep people interested. this all feels strangely familiar.
"The opposite of war isn't peace, its creation!" - Jonathan Larson
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+ Re: Part I: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman?
Posted by squirrelhouse [User Info] on 8/24/2010, 3:46 am, in reply to "Re: Part I: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman? "
that was a lovely post speakerb
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+ Bee K is Okay...
Posted by MMM [User Info] on 8/24/2010, 10:04 am, in reply to "Re: Part I: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman? "
I concur with speakerb. My relations with Bee K in real life have been nothing but sensitive, respectful and fun. I think he handles the job well at sidewalk and has always been really receptive to any suggestions I had about stuff. And as far as I can tell the women friendly vibe there seems to have gone up since he has been the booker. I'm pretty sure this is true...? I'm sure he will be taking away a lot from this thread.
I didn't mean to discourage Bee K or censor him. I think he has contributed a lot of interesting and insightful things to this board. I don't always agree with him or like the way he says things but that's life. Life is all about learning to deal with this stuff. It's easier when we do it together. When I see someone getting a little obsessive about posting on this board sometimes I suggest that people take a break more as just friendly advice. I'm really glad he took it that way. I need to do it for myself all the time. The only thing I regret is that I did this publicly. I probably should have sent a private message and I'm sorry if it looked like some kind of a authoritarian move or something like that. I didn't mean it to be that way.
Bee K told me recently that he's been working a lot and spends the majority of his time with his young daughter who only knows about 100 words so you can understand how that can kind of do a number on your head and social life. Anyway, I look forward to hearing about his trip to Portland.
"Always make new mistakes." -Esther Dyson
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+ This is a rhetorical straight-jacket.
Posted by Brer [User Info] on 8/23/2010, 4:24 pm, in reply to "Re: Part I: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman? "
Message modified by user Brer 8/23/2010, 4:32 pm
Just how far should one go to make sure their speech or their songwriting doesn't make anyone else uncomfortable? Mary can stick to her guns and I'll stick to mine... My dick jokes will be pried from my cold dead fingers. (And I wasn't even that into dick jokes before this whole conversation started...)
re: Matt. Thank you for the kind words, once again I am sincerely glad you weren't hurt on the street. (edited to "street" from "subway" )
Garcon mauvais. Qu'est ce que tu ferras? Qu'est ce que tu ferras quand ils viennent pour toi?
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# Respect is not a straight-jacket.
Posted by danf [User Info] on 8/23/2010, 5:22 pm, in reply to "This is a rhetorical straight-jacket."
Not all dick jokes are sexist.
When a person genuinely understands the scope of misogyny in our society, and genuinely cares about the well-being of women, then healthy discourse will come pretty naturally, without anyone feeling like they are in a "rhetorical straight-jacket."
.
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# Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman? second part
Posted by squirrelhouse [User Info] on 8/23/2010, 6:55 pm, in reply to "This is a rhetorical straight-jacket."
Message modified by user squirrelhouse 8/23/2010, 7:03 pm
unfortunately, I think my responses are turning out to be mostly in disagreement with the things Mary wrote. it’s not to say there weren’t positive and true things in her posts.
‘Bliss’ “Real Women do Real Things” thread got 82 responses but you can count the number of responses that talked about the women artists in the anti folk scene on one hand.‘
I don’t think that speaks to the support of women on the scene, it’s because there don’t tend to be discussions here, even at all, about our artists. they aren’t analyzed, reviewed, celebrated. what’s talked about here are issues, not artists. so it doesn’t surprise me that there weren’t a lot of comments about individuals that were mentioned, we know them and about them already. the reason lady gaga got all the responses was because she was the one who was being judged and analyzed, she was the ‘other,’ she was the issue.
re Yoko:
‘How many of us congratulated her? Gave her celebratory gifts? Told her how proud we are of her? A video of her performance was posted right here on OJ, this was an opportunity to do so!‘
I don’t think that has anything to do with Yoko’s gender. plenty of posts, announcements, photos, of scene artists on this board that get zero responses.
re Nan’s show:
‘How many of us make a special effort to go out to the the gigs of these beloved female artist friends of ours? How many thought it was important to go to Nan Turners’ show in Staten Island last night, for example? How many of those people were men?’
I agree with Justin that it’s about enjoyment, friendship, or comes down to who you like, and that people don’t go to shows based on gender. maybe that would be the case if there were only two women artists, people would think, ‘wow we should go out and support them, they’re such a minority,’ but that isn’t the case.
I agree with Mary that if you’re inclined to be interested in women artists, by all means go out of your way to support them. but it can be just as difficult for many male performers, who may get only a handful of people to come to their show, or none at all.
this isn’t to belittle what ladies have to go through at what must often be sexist venues. but male or female, serious expressive artists struggle against the same odds, they have to muster the resources at their disposal.
‘many women artists are pretty bad at self-promotion in comparison to their male peers.’
I find the opposite to be true, the women are very good at promoting, men are not. they tend to be organized and on top of lists and invitations and flyers. men often do nothing, they need managers. the women are good at being their own managers.
Mary asked a bunch of questions about male/female ratios, I’ll try to give a simple response based on the calendar in front of me. tonight Julian Lopez is at national underground, and i know that Phoebe Blue and Sam Belloch are going to sidewalk open mic. tomorrow Little Cobweb, Angela Carlucci’s band, is at pete’s. Wednesday Amanda Schmidt is at sidewalk, and Cal Folger Day is at her weekly banjo jim’s residency, Phoebe Kreutz at union pool. urban barnyard, fronted by Phoebe Kreutz, is at sidewalk Thursday night. Supercute is at bowery poetry on Friday. for the boys: Richard Ringer will be signing up at sidewalk tonight, David YaYa Herman Dune at Pete’s tomorrow, and at union pool with Fishermen Three wednesday. Adam Bricks at sidewalk Wednesday, Joe Crow on Staten Island Saturday, Johnny Houx at silent barn on sunday. that’s the best I can do to break up things by gender for this week!
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+ songwriting creates an atmosphere
Posted by squirrelhouse [User Info] on 8/23/2010, 6:11 pm, in reply to "Re: Part I: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman? "
responding to Dan, i’d like to hear examples of such songwriting. but in any case writers aren’t beholden to a demographic according to whether it approves or not of what they write. the demographic can take it or leave it. if there's a feeling among women that they can’t talk about these subjects, that’s truly unfortunate. but I don’t hear songwriters of the female persuasion having any trouble singing about whatever they want, or expressing themselves in any way they want, just the same as the guys do.
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# Re: songwriting creates an atmosphere
Posted by danf [User Info] on 8/23/2010, 8:20 pm, in reply to "songwriting creates an atmosphere"
I'm not really interested in calling out specific songwriters on songs that don't respect the experience and oppression of women.
I just think it's worth mentioning that some don't.
No one is obligated to write songs from a feminist perspective. Just like I'm not obligated to like your songs if you don't.
.
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* Reply
Posted by Barry Bliss [User Info] on 8/23/2010, 9:09 pm, in reply to "Re: songwriting creates an atmosphere"
I do not agree that anyone owes it to anyone else to explain themselves.
I do agree that it is none of my business what anyone else thinks I mean when I say something.
A perfect example is the following:
Lots of times when rehearsing I engage in word play where I pull lyrics out and put others in etc.
One lyric I had recently established as the norm was void of panty hose and lies.
This changed to void of all black clothes and lies.
This changed to void of all black hose and lies.
I was thinking about the black in black clothes and the hose in pantyhose and had taken from each to make black hose.
I only later realized that a lot of people would possibly assume I was saying black hoes as in black whores, which I was not.
I certainly would not owe it to an audience to stop the song and explain all this.
I certainly don't believe I need to avoid singing about hose due to the fact that someone else might be choosing to stay stuck in a certain limited mindset and make an assumption that is wrong.
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o All hail M. Sloan.
Posted by yoko [User Info] on 8/24/2010, 12:42 pm, in reply to "Reply"
All hail M Sloan.
From the beginning: As a girl growing up with my parents and no siblings, isolated in an apartment building in downtown Manhattan, I was raised specifically to not have an opinion, lest it be shot down by my dad. Joking around was valued (unless my dad was NOT JOKING, when my jokes back would be severely punished, and I mean physically), much more than sticking to your guns. If I were to ever express a serious sentiment or opinion, I was in danger of being laughed at. My serious opinions were dismantled by a constant stream of devil’s-advocacy which oftentimes bordered on racist and highly conservative views, none of which my dad actually believes, solely in the interest of shaking up my liberal, hippie-progressive-school-formed mind. (My dad registered as a Republican just to piss off my mom and her liberal friends and relatives. Uh huh.) I feel like I can tell exactly which kind of upbringing the individual posters (“OJ Boarders” – I love it, it’s like we live here) on this forum have had – those whose opinions mattered, and those who were raised like me.
So for one of the first times I am putting in some effort – reading more thoroughly, and trying to write a thoughtful response and not just a quickie stream-of-consciousness, jokey and/or antagonistic one. I hope others who haven’t posted already will do the same. Because this is something I care about and I really admire what Mary’s done by sticking out her neck and she is a really special and important person to me. Anyone who can waken me from my self-absorbed state, not to mention open up the floodgates of communication here on the OJ Board, especially on a topic such as this one, deserves some serious Respect. And I am REALLY happy that Sarah wrote such a great response because she also doesn’t often post and what she said was so well-written and thought-provoking. I must also credit her with telling me to get my ass over here to read this thread, because I had no idea it was here until yesterday afternoon.
Mary’s post made me laugh till I almost cried. She’s really witty! Although there is anger there which comes from a true place, her open-minded and loving nature shows through, in all that she writes. Probably the people who don’t know her as well as I do might not realize this. And I’m so happy she feels the way she does, it makes me feel really appreciated. And yes, I do feel underappreciated as a solo performer. I often feel like I need to play with a band in order to get any attention. But when I play solo I feel much more alive than when I play with a band. And I’m going to continue to do so. Playing that festival in Vancouver last month gave me this confidence that my solo work is worth something, which previously I’d undervalued myself considerably, never promoting my solo shows and always beginning a show with the disclaimer, “Uh, I usually play with a band…” So thanks Mary. Thanks for liking me. I think that the general taste of this crowd as far as female performers are concerned is that females who play pretty, “folky” songs are given a much higher rating than females who write from a background in riot-grrrl, feminist music. But that’s people’s taste. Not everyone grew up liking the music that me and Nan and Dan and some others did.
My mind is a whirl of questions for myself and for you readers. I don’t know for sure if anyone else here is specifically sexist. As a musician, I know that I am biased TOWARDS women’s music. Maybe this is narcissistic? Do I only want to hear what I can relate to, or a type of voice that sounds like it could be mine? I am also biased towards simplicity – perhaps because I can’t play an instrument the same way a trained musician can? And towards lyrics and sounds that seem like I could have written them and don’t seem random, and don’t seem like I’ve heard them before. Are we all just secretly wanting to hear stuff that we wish we could have written because we relate so strongly to it and it inspires us? In that case, it makes sense that men would like men’s music and be more likely to attend shows of the males in our scene. Or is it that people, not just men, are subconsciously more willing to give a guy a fair listen? I know some girls who prefer guys’ music to girls’. I sometimes think to myself, “Really? Maybe they haven’t heard enough good music.” Or on a bad day, “It’s because they don’t love themselves and are feeling competitive.” (Can you imagine a guy thinking the latter about a guy preferring girls’ music? Do you think that happens?) Because personally I am somewhat more likely to attend a show to see a lady I like play solo than a guy I like. Is it because the guys I like play more often and receive more support? I don’t know. Sometimes I’ll hear a song I don’t like on the radio and I’ll think, “If this was a girl singing maybe I’d like it.” Do any guys on the board ever have the reverse thought, or the same thought? I won’t call you sexist; clearly I have my preferences. The nights I book are often made up of women who play rockier-type songs, and sometimes there will be a few guys in the mix and usually the guys are solo and/or write “pretty” songs. Because that’s what I tend to like, with lots of exceptions. And yes, I have made jokes about a bill of mostly testosterone-pumped rock dudes being a “sausagefest” and the likelihood of me attending that show could be slim. The likelihood of me attending a night of all girls playing ultra-slick folky music is also pretty slim. But when it’s a mix, even if it’s male-heavy, I will probably attend because I probably love some of the dudes involved, or their music, and sometimes both. I’ll probably wish for more girls to be involved, but that’s why I set up my own nights.
The females that come to mind who over the years have curated nights of music often (ones I have played or attended)– me, Nan, Julie D, Liv, the Fools, Julie L, Deenah… there are more I’m sure… I think of those Nan and I might be the only ones who tend to book heavy on the ladies. Mary, with all respect to every last bit of content of your posts, I think you need to start booking shows of people that you like, and please don’t take this like, “Oh yeah, who are YOU gunna book?!” but rather, that I know they’d be incredibly special, because you are one of the most thoughtful and intelligent people I’ve ever had the pleasure of knowing and you put 100% of yourself into everything you say, do and create. I’d be so ####ing thrilled if you started setting up shows on top of all the other amazing things that you do.
I would like to thank Barry for the Real Women thread, and M Sloan for posting this one. I am going to admit right now that I had never thoroughly read a thread all the way through. Finally, this intelligent lady starts going off with feeling and here I am, having printed the whole thing out and actually wanting to form and express an opinion on all of it. That’s some serious progress for me.
Love
Yk.
Deleted thoughts, but I’ll include them:
-Yes, I hate to be pigeonholed - “woman musician” and “sounds like the 90s”..ahem.. but I must say it can pay off to be pigeonholed once in a while. There is funding for the arts in certain holes, such as my experience three weeks ago, getting paid because I’m Japanese or whatever. How surreal. (As for Asian night… I’d totally play that just for fun’s sake, but I’d be embarrassed to book it or any other pigeonhole NIGHT … I just wanna book what I like. By the way, Virgo Night is Sept 22.)
-Many of you have asked me at recent gatherings, “Why do you want to move to San Francisco, when you have so much support here?” The answer - to be with my sister, who is currently eleven, and being raised by my dad, who makes light of EVERYTHING and is raising her in a similar fashion to how I was raised (without the violence). I was and am unconditionally creatively supported by my mom (nothing more specific than “I love your music,” and coming to weekend/early shows, but that is a LOT of support compared to most!) but growing up I was consistently antagonized by my dad, and still receive mostly disparaging comments from him (“Why don’t you ever write love songs?” “Your band could be out of the 60s, there’s nothing original about it” “Your real strength is in those harmonies, you need Ann to sing with you again.”). So I’m going to make sure that things are going OK because sisters need to stick together.
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+ Re: All hail M. Sloan.
Posted by nan [User Info] on 8/24/2010, 2:52 pm, in reply to "All hail M. Sloan."
yoko, thanks for writing what you did.
you wrote a lot of the same thoughts I was having......especially about being drawn to music that women play. my radar is up if i see a band of all women versus all men....i wanna know what they're gonna do....will i feel inspired? will i feel competitive? sometimes both!
am i reverse sexist because i am drawn to women playing music?
or is it just that it still doesn't happen that often that i see a band of all-women so it is unique or special?
I know A LOT of women who struggle with self-confidence (myself included)
and to get validation means a lot.
I wrote here once about my lack of a consistent mother but I was often intimidated and threatened by my stepfather......so I know too what it is to hold back and not throw your opinions out there - if you are ridiculed and not taken seriously you start to consider, "well what's the point?"
I still am a bit timid about discussing gender because I feel i'm not articulate enough - or I don't know the right lingo to express what I'm feeling...but maybe it's just i haven't practiced enough.
in terms of playing music - i'm definitely not a prodigy. I've learned instruments baby step by baby step. I am really happy I have a great drum teacher/mentor - she has supported me for the past 8 years....and given me a lot of tools - not just with playing drums- but how to navigate my way through performing anxiety, negative comments from people, wrist injuries - all the REST of playing music -
i call her my "holistic" drum teacher.
speaking of comments...which sort of goes back to what erin was talking about:
I am remembering this one comment actually from a friend in germany - he was a fellow drummer & we were sharing a kit -setting up together before the show-
and i was asking him how to set up one of his cymbal stands (couldn't find the right piece) and he said "this is how you do it. you don't know because you're blonde".
WHAT?
or how about a guy coming up to me after a show in leipzig saying, "What you need is a double kick pedal because you need more power. (he did a fist pump in the air then, seriously) .By the way you haven't gotten better at drums since the last time i saw you".
(hmm why did you come to the show then? so you could tell me this? thanks for sharing.)
I have been told many times to just relax, that these guys "don't mean it in a bad way"....they're just being stupid or joking.
Even though i'm much tougher-skinned now (or maybe it's more confident) than when i first started playing drums - i let these comments slide - you do have to pick and choose your battles -
i'm still wondering "why?"
the suprise comments like erin was saying - i get those too.
"i was suprised - you're good!"
there is an expectation out there that women cannot play as well as men and this is an extra (maybe internalized) obstacle for a woman who actually is a beginner or trying something new creatively. which is why the notion of support is vital. radical even.
Which makes me think about how LUCKY i was/am in this community to have received support and have been allowed to be a beginner at my instruments. i allowed myself this "beginner - ness" first and foremost, but luckily the people that dug schwerve (or my solo stuff) allowed for this too.
Why should a woman have to play like a man, or fit a traditional mold of expectation of how a drummer (or guitarist, bassist, etc) should play? why can't each person find their way of playing instruments and that be cool?
I just saw a movie of the white stripes and when Meg plays the drums she is TOTALLY expressive and talk about inspiring to me....she just plays how she plays and has her own style.
She was really a pioneer in some ways -
there's a lot of haters out there of course saying "she doesn't know how to play the drums..."
blah blah.
what i wish for my creative lady friends
is self-love. it's radical. revolutionary even. KEEP GOING. KEEP PUTTING YOUR WORK OUT THERE. I'M LISTENING. MANY ARE LISTENING.
and all those enlightened sensitive men that posted here and are listening- thank you.
wow i used the word "radical" a bunch of times.
here's an interesting article I came across:
http://venuszine.com/articles/music/features/7581/Amy_Kleins_Tour_Diaries
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# Re: All hail M. Sloan.
Posted by Laura [User Info] on 8/24/2010, 6:31 pm, in reply to "Re: All hail M. Sloan."
I'm not even sure what to say at this point on here. I actually read all the threads on this one! I'm rather shy and polite myself! Thanks for posting this Mary!... it's an important discussion. I suppose I'm not taking it too seriously. If I did, I would just be angry. I wish we all get well. I mean deeply. wholy. Props to Jon for seeking help. I've had to seek help publicly in the past and probably still could use a shrink and it is really hard to put yourself out there and admit you need help. I'm sure there are resources around you people will help you to find.. I really enjoyed reading that article by Amy Klein that Nan posted. I might drive two hours to Ithaca to Castaways to see her perform tomorrow and drive two hours back the same night just because I can and I want to despite all the fear being pumped into me.
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# Re: All hail M. Sloan.
Posted by Phoebeee [User Info] on 8/24/2010, 8:35 pm, in reply to "Re: All hail M. Sloan."
Message modified by user Phoebeee 8/24/2010, 8:47 pm
Ooh, sugar. God save us all from the unsolicited advice of knuckleheads abroad! You know how much I love touring Europe, but that is a whole continent of dudes waiting to tell you what they would have done differently.
But I'm not sure if it's a gender thing there so much as a magical cultural difference that makes the world a richer place and makes me want to punch people in the nose. I could be wrong. But it seems like equal-opportunity douchery.
---I wrote that but then I thought about what Nan wrote and I wonder if the style of comments is different. Like maybe a man is more likely to tell a man "I didn't like your music" and tell a woman, "you should do this or that differently." Like the woman is more of a work-in-progress that needs help?
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* Re: All hail M. Sloan.
Posted by casey [User Info] on 8/25/2010, 6:31 pm, in reply to "Re: All hail M. Sloan."
i think it's fairly equal opportunity douchery, as you say -- though i'm sure there is a difference in the way people put it between guys and girls. i've had this experience both in NY and abroad. i especially love it when people come up *right after the set* and start giving you "tips."
no hope! see? that's what gives me guts. big f/ucking shit! right now, man.
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+ Re: All hail M. Sloan.
Posted by jewlie [User Info] on 8/25/2010, 12:37 am, in reply to "All hail M. Sloan."
Yokes! Okay, I don't really think in terms of gender in this scene. Maybe because in the scene I grew up in, I felt very gender aware. I had male musicians all around me. My father, brother, and most of my friends were male and were musicians. Back then, these male musicians were technically very astute-but playing covers of progressive rock songs. There was very little expression of original song writing.
I bought my first bass when I was 17. I started to immediately write songs with it and only played them in the bathroom ,(which was in the center of the house) with the door and windows closed when nobody was home. Intimidation factor: high. It was most important that I not be heard. I was very aware of not being able to "technically" play whatever I wanted but I just wanted to cut to expressing. Unfortunately because of that, it took me years to enjoy what some technique can afford you. This secret expression went on for years until my friend Sam (a male), who was one of the most technically proficient musicians I have ever met, encouraged me to play my songs for him. It was terrifying but his true passion and sincere love for music and original creative expression seemed completely and effortlessly unbiased (gender-wise) and that was so inspirational that I felt safe for the first time expressing myself musically. Shortly after that I found that my Father and Bother shared that unthreatened love for music through all their proficiency and were just as supportive.
No doubt, I am pretty sensitive to that weird male gender-biased energy when I see it, but honestly I don't see it around me much. Maybe I'm not aware of it because of the confidence and security I've gained delving into and presenting whatever it is that I find I have... helped along with the support of people like Sam and the fine supportive peeps of this community (male and female). Maybe sometimes I can't even imagine it. A lot of times it seems more of a certain mind set of equating technique with value rather than gender with value. Although i think it seems common for girls not to have been encouraged to even learn in that "technical" way and so- in that way- that should be viewed as gender specific. Also I'm not the most prolific performer so maybe that has something to do with it as my exposure is diminished. But, I do know that in general, it's out there in force and affects many women musicians I know. I've definitely shared feelings about it many times with them. But, for the most part, it definitely feels main streamy and can mostly be directly avoided by sticking close to ground and close to humanity and close to yourself. But we all live in the culture and it seeps in. I like what Mary wrote. I like what Dan said about owning it if only because you are part of the culture and it exists culturally. What's the big deal? That doesn't seem so threatening.
I don't check this board very often and would have missed this fine thread if not for Yoko spreading the word. I too admit, that this is the first time I've read a thread all the way through.
ps. I'm not koo koo about lady Gagas's music but I think she's as worth talking about as any other lady. Maybe a little more boring only because there's so much exposure. But I certainly wouldn't take anything away from a sister. I actually think that gaga and Nan have something in common and I am in awe of it. (Of course, artistically speaking, Nan is is much more my interest!)
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# olive juice messerole
Posted by yoko [User Info] on 8/25/2010, 2:48 am, in reply to "Re: All hail M. Sloan."
WOW! I love what this thread is doing. Don’t forget to read all the new responses within the layers of this message board lasagna. It’s like we’re sprouting little seeds of acceptance. And I love every one of you. So happy to read the new posts by Peggy, Deenah, Nan and Julie, and looking forward to more and more. I feel so relieved to have a community like this. I’m so happy too that this week is coinciding with so many amazing shows. Tonight’s Little Cobweb and Ya-Ya Herman Dune show was such a treat. I hope to see all your faces in the next few nights!
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* Re: olive juice messerole
Posted by casey [User Info] on 8/25/2010, 6:22 pm, in reply to "olive juice messerole"
i'm really glad you and all the other ladies have weighed in on this. it's really helpful to read so many thoughts from veterans of the scene. tone said he thought this might be his favorite oj thread ever -- i'm not sure if "favorite" is the right word for me, but it's certainly one of the most pertinent and meaningful ones i've read.
no hope! see? that's what gives me guts. big f/ucking shit! right now, man.
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+ Re: All hail M. Sloan.
Posted by danf [User Info] on 8/25/2010, 9:25 am, in reply to "All hail M. Sloan."
Yoko! I was gonna email this to you but this works too.
So many thoughts upon reading your post. Among them:
-Your opinions deserve to be heard! ALL THE TIME! LOUDLY! NOT JUST IN SONG!
-Sometimes I forget that not everyone grew up with riot grrl music, and thus not everyone sees songwriting as a tool of resistance against misogyny and heterosexism. This also reminds me that we should all read my friend Sara Marcus' new book, GIRLS TO THE FRONT.
-I also have a proclivity towards music sung by women. I think it's because so many male songwriters (really, so many men) have such limited perspectives on the world that their songs end up pretty uninteresting. Anyone coming from a less privileged position is much more likely to have something interesting to say. I know that's an inflammatory comment but I stand by it. But this makes me realize that...
-...I've found the highest concentration of quality heterosexual men (and quality male songwriters) in the anti-folk community than anywhere else. I actually remember coming here and realizing that a man could be okay without being officially schooled in radical feminist thought. I never thought I'd be friends with straight guys, let alone with a straight man as my best friend, but this community is a place where that can happen. And it's a community (as Julie mentions) where sexist condescension is at a relative minimum, compared to the rest of the world, and certainly compared to other music scenes.
This is all just to say: This is a pretty good place, and it will get even better with more dialogue like this.
.
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# Re: All hail M. Sloan.
Posted by elisaf [User Info] on 8/25/2010, 12:31 pm, in reply to "Re: All hail M. Sloan."
Phew! It took me a few days to read through this whole thread, and I don't know if there's much more I can add. I very much liked Yoko's and Nan's responses down this way on the thread.
I'm a bit of a lurker, I'm not a member of the anti-folk scene as it were, but I do like it and enjoy the performers and people, and as some of you know, I pop up from time to time. I should pop up more often, I know.
When I started playing in punk bands over 20 years ago, there were some women musicians, but it was heavily male. I found a lot of support from other musicians; I never learned how to play guitar "properly," I learned by going to shows and watching my friends. The third band I was in (for 6 years) was 2 women and 2 men, and 3 of us were complete beginners when the band started. I have to say that band (Freak Baby) was the most supportive one I've ever been in; we all learned together, and the one other guitarist (the great Todd Knapp) was much more experienced than me but he always, always encouraged and helped me and never had anything negative to say about my playing or abilities. It was a joy to play with and learn from someone like that. (I can't say the same for every other guy I've been in bands with since; I've gotten a hell of a lot of attitude about my lack of technical music knowledge and not knowing what key songs were in, etc. I was crushed when I realized that not everyone was like my old friends and liked lecturing instead of assisting people with different levels of musical chops!)
I did find a lot of prejudice and stupidity (and still do from time to time) in the guys who work at music stores. "Are you buying that cable for your boyfriend?" "Do you understand what this pedal does?" "That guitar of yours sucks, you should buy this one." Yeah, dude, thanks.
Re: Anders' reply (a most lovely person to play with, by the way!), it's funny that the band at Purchase wouldn't let you play with them. Freak Baby (as a 3 piece) played the first Riot Girl festival in DC, and the day we played we were the first band with a guy in it. A hush came over everyone, and a few people said, "look, there's a man in that band!" The horror!
In general, things are a hella lot better than when I started playing. The various scenes -punk, anti folk, and whatever else - that I've been in have always had a good amount of enlightened men and plenty of dorks who don't get it and never will. I've tried to stick with the enlightened ones, and ignore the idiots. (On a side note, when I was just a little punk rock kid from Yonkers, I'd get cursed out and even spit at because people back in them days thought punks were "crazy" and "dirty." My favorite slander of all time was the guy who screamed at me on the subway when I was about 17 and had spiky hair and ripped jeans on: "stay away from me you dirty spic punk rocker!!")
I've had a pretty good time of it - heck I'm still playing.
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o Re: Reply
Posted by Anders [User Info] on 8/24/2010, 1:03 pm, in reply to "Reply"
Message modified by user Anders 8/24/2010, 9:07 pm
i have thought / felt some things
and have just a couple things i can share
though it really doesn't add much of anything
still interested in learning more
i am probably one of those "neutral" types
i love women
and if i somehow learned that i was not acting in accord with that i would want to know
i can't say anything about how others want to act
but i hope people will value some kind of neighborliness
and i love acceptance of others
but i understand some people can't always relate (myself included)
i haven't noticed a difference in the way the different artists i accompany are supported, just differences in popularity
and i mostly perform with women
as far as music-making goes, i've mostly gravitated toward collaborating with women:
regina, kimya, diane, linda draper, elisa flynn, karen hancock, and others who have been around the scene (and not around the scene) at one time or another
i don't have any special explanation, they have just been the most interesting to me
i'm definitely attracted to female energy
it doesn't have to be a sexual thing
i pursue artistic/creative relationships when i'm attracted to the art and sexual relationships when i'm attracted to the sex ...
it hasn't really overlapped too much for me personally
( i also pursue relationships that i don't consider especially sexual or artistic
maybe "as a guy" i wouldn't notice if there was any different treatment or support of these women
but i would expect to notice because i always want the shows to be a success
also, all the women i [have] work[ed] with handle themselves pretty well
i think there are other generalizations i could make about working with women, and maybe they wouldn't be too bad ...
i've known m sloan for a pretty long time and i will vouch for her awesomeness
( even though she spelled my name wrong -- it's Griffen with an "e"
not that she or anybody else needs me to vouch for her awesomeness
just sayin
i'm really glad that m sloan was at my show with diane and i told her so
i am really super happy to share this music right now
come hear us!
--> knitting factory, thurs sept 2, 8pm
i don't feel much a part of "the scene" anymore
though i try to keep in touch
everything is different since i ran away in 2004
i've met a lot of cool folks that came on the scene while i was out west and some folks that have emerged since i've been back
-- i told erin i enjoyed her recording without the least bit of surprise (i was fully expecting to enjoy it)
on the rare occasion that i'm around, folks have made me feel welcome and that's really nice
thanks!
at purchase there was girl band that needed a drummer and they wouldn't have me
that was ok... but i did want to play with them
(i often feel kind of silly posting here, i've even just e-mailed matt instead; he tells me just to go ahead and post)
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+ Re: Reply
Posted by Tone [User Info] on 8/24/2010, 11:26 pm, in reply to "Re: Reply"
Peggy here- I'm borrowing Tone's computer so I'm logged in as him.
So first of all, this is one of the most interesting threads I've ever read on the board. And while a lot of people have spoken to things that came to my mind I still feel that I have to say something about this. I'm a little older than many of the women that have written on this subject, and what really jumps out at me is how little things have actually changed since I was a full-time performing musician. Its almost painful in its own right to think of all my friends going through and putting up with the same crap that I was putting up with in the late 70s and early 80s. I remember one time at CBGB some guy came backstage and said that he could make my band successful if I would just do him some "special favors". You can imagine what they were. Simultaneously, women friends of mine were remarking on whether I dressed too "sexy". Yet on the other hand, when I first met Madonna, she told me to wear less clothing. So where is the music and musicianship in any of this? And why did it only happen to me and not the male members of my band (or the other male musicians that I knew)?
But I'd like to step back even further. Because I agree with most of what Mary said, but I feel like this is not just the anti folk scene. And it would be wrong not to note that proportion by proportion, there are a lot more women, and strong interesting and diverse women at that, who are part of this scene and there must be some reason why they gravitate to it. I myself have felt both sides of this--welcomed and trivialized at times, but far less trivialized in the anti folk scene than in society at large.
I don't know the exact figures any more, but I've heard that one in four women in the US will experience rape in their lifetime--and I've also heard that every 9 seconds a woman is beaten, and often by someone that is supposed to "love" her. At a very young age women are taught to hide their bodies, while boys of the same age run around shirtless. Images surround us--just try to count them in a single day--of women's bodies in sexual positions, many with violent implications, being used as marketing tools and sources of titillation. At the same time most women are made to feel uncomfortable even doing something as natural as nursing a baby in public. The only time that I don't feel this as a pressure compressing my ability to be a full human being is when I am alone walking in the woods. So, even though I don't completely agree with Valerie Solanas, I can understand the level of anger that she felt when she wrote the Scum Manifesto.
However, I don't blame individual men--because I think we are all products of the society that we grow up in and while we have the choice to fight for change we all carry a lot of baggage that we may not even recognize. Most especially, it can be hard to understand oppression you don't experience. So being male, it can be hard to even understand what it's like to be female in this kind of society. But biologically, there is really very little difference. And as this thread demonstrates, it is possible for men who are willing to engage and listen to take the blinders off and be transformed.
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o Re: Reply
Posted by danf [User Info] on 8/25/2010, 9:04 am, in reply to "Reply"
Barry, I respect and appreciate your opinion on this.
Still, if I realized it sounded like I was singing "black hoes" in a way that could be insulting to black women, then I'd probably re-write that part of the song so I wouldn't make anyone feel unsafe. That's me.
Basically, most of the time, it's more important to me that culturally-besieged people feel safe than it is for me to be able to say whatever the crap I want. There are obviously exceptions, but, as a second class citizen myself, I know what it's like to feel silenced or threatened, and I wouldn't want to cause anyone else to go through that.
I imagine this part of the thread might seem very specific and off-topic, but I actually think this kind of debate is central to feminist art-making. This question of "what is my responsibility as a writer and a member of a community?" Or, in the case of many of us, "what is my responsibility as a writer and a member of a community and a feminist?"
.
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+ Flower from shit
Posted by Laura [User Info] on 8/25/2010, 1:41 pm, in reply to "Re: Reply"
Actually, I will let myself be pissed off about this shit. And then I'll be creative about it and loud. This is a topic that really hits a nerve with me. I've been surrounded by misogyny my whole life in extremely detrimental ways to my own life in all aspects and ideas and voice obviously as well as what I see in female family and friends from their similar upbringings. Thanks for sharing your thoughts Mary. You are an amazing talented person who's helped me out a lot, and I hope you share more of your work with the world. I think this is really a wonderful flower from some crap that we all can gain some knowledge from. At least it might help to keep awareness up a little more of the challenges we face. I definitely gained something from reading this. Though I probably won't post again, b/c this is not my scene. I don't live there. Thanks for sharing though. I really have a hard time publicly expressing my opinion. I appreciate hearing so many voices with opinions that were my thoughts too. hope this doesn't sound too after-school special or tiny tim. I won't let people nor fear silence me anymore when I have something I feel worth saying.
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# Re: Flower from shit
Posted by tpm [User Info] on 8/26/2010, 3:53 am, in reply to "Flower from shit"
"Don't You Forget That You Came From A Mother's Womb"
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o Re: Part I: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman?
Posted by slaut [User Info] on 8/31/2010, 7:44 am, in reply to "Part I: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman? "
What a hard thread. Thanks for bringing the ball, Mary. It's hard for me not to pipe up when these kinds of things get going. Here are some thoughts from a relative newcomer:
This scene initially impressed me with its apparent coolness about gender. No terrible hardcore shows chockablock with shirtless dudes; no defensively cerebral math-rock bands who posture just as hard as the hardcore guys-- lots of songwriters, lots of strumming, lots of talking and lots of coed bands. this is not to say that there isn't always a reservoir of groundwater gender issues.
It's a credit to this group of artists that there's even a place to discuss this and the collective will.
Sometimes I"ll get an outwardly sweet compliment about playing guitar that I have to wonder about. I wonder whether the outwardly sweet complimenter is either startled that I know how to play my instrument (the "i was surprised! yer good!" phenomenon described by Nan and Erin) or awarding me extra points for working with a handicap-- the handicap being that I am female.
It sucks that I even think so defensively.
I get the same queasy feeling when I see soundbites in NY magazine that say things like Female Shredders Are the New Black. That's a real one.
Marissa Paternoster from Screaming Females is a great guitar player and an excellent writer of punk songs, and still, the hysteria over how fast and technically steep her guitar solos is always the focus of the SF press. It's like, whoa, man! Lookit th' li'l lady go! A stunt.
We admit "bias" toward art produced by specifically gendered artists in particular and there's this feeling of contrition to it. I think it's fine and totally natural.
I personally always perk up big time when I see a group of female musicians get onstage.
It's not a cakewalk, by the way, assembling an all-women band. I've been playing in bands since I was a teenager and the ONLY all female gigging band I've played with since that time has been Dream Britches.
Maybe, as Yoko suggests, one of our first and most keenly felt appetites in art is to hear a familiar voice.
David Foster Wallace has written insistently a whole bunch of times that art's purest purpose is to reduce loneliness. And he was very.
Attempting gender blindness is silly. Gender's role in our lives is as dimensioned and irrefutable as the weather.
An Aimee Mann song, coming from a genderless Aimee Nothing, would not be a purer or more objective psychological sketch for its neutrality-- it would be irretrievably different and much less interesting.
There's some really thoughtful, interesting stuff up here-- Sarah H., Pheobee, MMM, Yoko, Dan Fishback, MARY (whose very distinctive, very entertaining and, yes, kinda Solanis-y prose style is earning her enemies that she does not deserve)-- I'm real glad I took the time.
Respects,
Sara L.
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+ Re: Part I: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman?
Posted by MMM [User Info] on 8/31/2010, 10:45 am, in reply to "Re: Part I: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman? "
Nice one! Good TLS show last night by the way!
"Always make new mistakes." -Esther Dyson
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+ Re: Part I: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman?
Posted by casey [User Info] on 9/2/2010, 12:36 pm, in reply to "Re: Part I: Anti-Folk: Anti-Woman? "
it's hard to escape gender vocabulary when talking about guitar skills ... i will admit that i see a general distinction between the stereotypical "dude" way to play electric guitar and the stereotypical "chick" way. i think what's awesome about your guitar playing is that it tests everyone's stereotypes about gender-style in musicianship. two of my biggest guitar heroes (ani difranco and patty larkin) both do the same thing in their guitar work and both were and are most instructive to me in terms of how i play -- in that sense, considering my background, i play guitar more "like a girl" than most guys do, but i'm proud of that. i don't think it's cool to be surprised that a woman can play guitar well. but i do think it's cool in a way to shock people out of their more complacent ideas of what a woman playing guitar is SUPPOSED to sound like. and i think you definitely do that slaut, every time you pick one up.
no hope! see? that's what gives me guts. big f/ucking shit! right now, man.